Earliest English lock?

[jstranah]

I'm looking at the 'English Lock Fishtail Fowler' offered by MVTC for $595....
[url] http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/MEL.shtml[/url]

...and I'm just wondering how far back those things can be documented. Every reference I've seen dates them to the very early 17th century -- even before doglocks -- and I see them referred to as 'simplified snaphaunces', but that's still not enough to satisfy. My quest is for something Elizabethan (not a wheelie or matchlock, but a true firelock), and the difference between an English lock and a snaphaunce from Albion Arms or the Rifle Shoppe is many hundreds of dollars and a *lot* of time.

I know the Spaniards had miquelet locks with a true frizzen in the 1570's. Is there any documentation on an English lock/simplified snaphaunce/call-it-what-you-may prior to the year 1600?

 

[flintlock75]

The true flintlock was developed in france about 1610, The fishtail musket you show has a spanish type lock. The english did use the snaphaunce lock on guns from 1600 onward. most examples i have looked at were dated from 1620's. The standard military muskets in use during the Elizibethan time period where matchlocks, wheellocks were available but to expensive for general use. A pirate captain would most likley have carried a german made wheelock pistol. These were available starting about 1540. A rich nobleman would have used a wheellock prior to 1600 and probaly a snaphaunce after 1600. I have not seen any documents showing flintlocks in use prior to 1610. I hope this helps you.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Jay,
Welcome to the 16th and 17th centuries when women were strong and men were peacocks in tights and really weird pants. Elizabeth died in 1603, therefore, Elizabethan period English guns spanned the the period 1558-1603. They would all have been matchlocks, wheellocks, and snaphaunces. The earliest "English" or "Jacobean" or modified snaphaunce locks would be later in the 1630's. The earliest English snaphaunce gun that I am aware of was a pistol built by Humphrey Rosser in 1577. It is a beautiful little pocket pistol (believe it or not). James Pinnock and William Taylor were making beautiful wheellock pistols during the 1540s, 50s and 60s. Some of their guns can be seen in Keith Neal and David Back's book "Great British Gunmakers 1540-1740. If you want a "Elizabethan" period gun you are going to have to give up on the early flintlocks or "English" locks.

dave

 

[jstranah]

(/heavy sigh)

That's what I kinda figured, but I wanted to consult the gurus here and make sure. Looks like it's Albion Arms and/or the Rifle Shoppe for me.

 

[benvenuto]

The true flintlock was developed in france about 1610, The fishtail musket you show has a spanish type lock.

no, its definitely not spanish :nono:

 

[WRussell]

Sadly, the Pinnock wheellocks in Neal's book are fakes. Hopefully the whole story will come out eventually, but I guess some of those involved are still alive. In the meantime some serious misinformation has been promulgated.

And no, I can't name names and document my sources. Some people can get serious about this stuff. So consider this just hot air, but be aware that even the Keith Neals of the world can be fooled.

Evidence has been found of English snaphaunces dating to 1592, and at least one example has been dated to 1584. Those interested can pursue the writings of Brian Godwin in the London Park Lane Arms Fair "catalog", actually a high quality magazine.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Bill,
That is very disturbing to hear. I hope someone will come forward with proof of that. If they are fakes, they are amazing ones.

dave

 

[Light Dragoon]

There is a letter from the English Ambassador to Scotland in (I believe) 1570 noting that almost all of the Scots are carrying pistols with a snaphaunce lock on them (he goes on to describe them, in case Lord Burghley didn't know what one was). There are a number of mentions of snaphaunce locked pistols and carbines by English military writers of the 1590's, so they were well established in England by then, though still rather novel on the Continent.

Since all sorts of flint-ignition firearms were called by the English "Snaphaunces" it's pretty difficult to nail down just when the English or Jacobean lock came into use, but certainly it had been developed, and was used side-by-side with the "normal" snaphaunces by the very earliest years of the 17th Century. Since internally they are identical to some (not all) of the later snaphaunces, with the exception of course of the arm to slide the pancover forward, it wouldn't be a huge stretch to change over from one to the other, even mid-manufacture.

Personally, since there just aren't any other period locks out there other than matchlocks (as far as anything remotely available or affordable) I see no reason not to use a good Jacobean lock for doing Elizabethan reenacting. Solder a circular flash-guard to the outside of the pan, and you're good! :grin:

(BTW, I DO have wheellocks, and I still maintain it's okay to use Jacobean locks for slightly earlier stuff, simply because they're tons better than anything else out there!)

Cheers!

Gordon