Early Brown Bess Musketoon Examples?

[Artificer]

P.S. In case you are interested our modern 16 gauge barrels will fit into the tolerances for the British .65/.66 Carbine bore.

Gus

 

[Tacksman45]

Back to what I think may be your area of interest, as you used the adjectives "Land Pattern" in your question.

I'm still not sure if you are talking about a shortened Land Pattern Bess in Musket Bore of .76 cal. (that actually varied from .76-.78 caliber as originally made) OR if you mean what for all intents and purposes looks like a scaled down Land Pattern Bess, but is of what British Ordnance began to settle as the "Carbine Bore" of .65 cal. in the later half of the 1750's and more or less commonly called that from the 1760's onward. Up to that time, they used the term "Carbine" more from the length of the barrel and not so much the caliber.

For example and it may seem strange to us, the Pattern 1744 Carbine for Dragoons was supposed to be of "Musket Bore of .76" and the only reason they called it a "Carbine" was the barrel was "only" 42" in length compared to the normal Musket Barrel length of 46". Here are the specifications from the Royal Armouries:
Flintlock muzzle-loading musket - Pattern 1744 Dragoon (dated 1747) - Royal Armouries collections

This link shows one made to that general Pattern.
Light Dragoon Carbine – Works – The Colonial Williamsburg Foundation (history.org)

To further confuse the issue, some of them were in the slightly smaller bore size of .70 and with only a 37 1/2 inch barrel length.
Dragoon Carbine – Works – The Colonial Williamsburg Foundation (history.org)

Here is a VERY SHORT barreled Carbine in the time period you are asking about, but still in Musket Bore. Please note is has NO entry thimble, so it is not a "cut down" Long Land Pattern Musket and actually made that way when new.
Cavalry Carbine – Works – The Colonial Williamsburg Foundation (history.org)

Now if you are interested in a true Carbine Bore of .65 cal. (which often actually ran from .64-.66 cal.) that was used here in the period you mentioned, then there's the P 1744 "Carbine for Horse" or Cavalry Carbine with a 37 inch barrel. These had the early banana shaped locks and a sliding ring bar for a cavalry sling.

However, some of these were modified and became the P1748 Carbine. Bailey notes that in 1748, some P1744 Carbines were modified for Infantry by cutting the stocks back for the bayonet, soldering a new sight, taking off the sling bar attachment and filling in the stock as needed, then adding "standard" Infantry Sling Swivels. I believe these were the Carbines that the 42nd Royal Highland Regiment was armed with when they got here early in the FIW.

Then there was there was the P1756 Carbine that made it here in quantity during the FIW primarily with Highland Regiments, but to a lesser extent with Artillery and issued to some Serjeants. It had the new P1755 flatter bottom, double bridle lock, Carbine bore of .65, 37 inch barrel length and perhaps of special note, was the first and really only arm here in quantity that was made for the new Iron/Steel Rammer.

I don't know if you would like information on use of "cut down" muskets for your project?

OK, I hope this helps, but you will need to respond if it doesn't meet your needs for your project

Gus

Gus,

This is exactly the info I was looking for! Thanks so much! Do you know if there were any artillery carbines produced during this time? I am specifically trying to avoid the "cut down" musket thing and specifically looking for muskets made with this design, like the examples you provided.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Buy a copy of Bailey's book "Small Arms of British Forces in America" and you will see examples of musketoons, artillery carbines, light infantry carbines etc.

dave

 

[Artificer]

Gus,

This is exactly the info I was looking for! Thanks so much! Do you know if there were any artillery carbines produced during this time? I am specifically trying to avoid the "cut down" musket thing and specifically looking for muskets made with this design, like the examples you provided.

The P 1744 "Carbine for Horse" or Cavalry Carbine with a 37 inch, .65/.66 cal. barrel. These had the early banana shaped locks, though they were double bride locks and a sliding ring bar for a cavalry sling.

However, some of these were modified and became the P1748 Carbine. Bailey notes that in 1748, some P1744 Carbines were modified for Infantry by cutting the stocks back for the bayonet, soldering a new sight, taking off the sling bar attachment and filling in the stock as needed, then adding "standard" Infantry Sling Swivels. I believe these were the Carbines that the 42nd Royal Highland Regiment was armed with when they got here early in the FIW. Further note, these may have been used by at least Serjeants in the Artillery here, but I don't think they were general issue to all Artillery Soldiers.

Then there was there was the P1756 Carbine that made it here in quantity during the FIW primarily with Highland Regiments, but to a lesser extent with Artillery and issued to some Serjeants. It had the new P1755 flatter bottom, double bridle lock, Carbine bore of .65, 37 inch barrel length, sling swivels and at first Wooden Rammers when they began showing up here in MAYBE late 1756, but more likely 1757.

Then sometime around 1758, British Ordnance began modifying them for "Iron Rammers" by soldering tubes into the Rammer Pipes to fit them and the really poor spring riveted to the Entry Pipe to better retain them. The problem with that modification was the springs often came loose or broke in use. Some of these were believed to have come here with the 2nd Bn of the 42nd RHR and also for some Infantry and Artillery Serjeants, though I don't know if they were generally issued to all Private Soldiers in the Artillery. Not saying they were or not, I just don't know.

Finally there is some evidence that perhaps the P1760 Carbine made if over before the War was over here, though not many and only as replacements for lost/broken Carbines. The difference between them and the earlier P1756/58 Carbines was they were the first such Carbines originally made with smaller Rammer Pipes for the Iron Rammers.

Now, I have NOT studied the use/issue of Light Infantry Carbines here during the FIW that Dave mentioned above. The big difference with them was the longer 42 inch barrels and still in .65/.66 caliber, though they had the other features of the P1756 Carbines, including slings and bayonets. Some of these MAY have been issued to Artillery "Other Ranks" or Private Soldiers, but I personally can't document or deny that. I DO know some of the Light Infantry Units didn't like them as they felt they were not "robust enough" and went back to Land Pattern Muskets. That would have made them available for issue to the Artillery, but again I can't say whether or not they took them.

Gus

 

[Roundball2319]

Interesting stuff. I got into muzzle loading because of a girlfriends father that introduced me to the Sharpe novels and TV shows.

 

[cositrike]

Also. Have a look at the book ‘ of sorts for provincials’ some short carbines, not land pattern, but may be of interest

 

[Artificer]

Also. Have a look at the book ‘ of sorts for provincials’ some short carbines, not land pattern, but may be of interest

Also, and if one is interested in more of what British and British American Regiments (Regulars and Provincials) did day to day and some weapons as well, then here is a GREAT book on it as it is almost completely about what happened on the North American Continent during the FIW.

A Soldier-Like Way, the Material Culture of the British Infantry 1751-1768, the French & Indian War era, by R. R. Gale - Track of the Wolf

Gus

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Hi Dave,

British Ordnance did not use the term "Musketoon" until the Percussion Period, from everything I've studied.

Gus

The term was not foreign, however...,

and that they will be (a)Board, Capt wanted in the new Vesseli, belonging to Mr Davy, Sloop, now bound for England; saying that the Guns lent were two third iron guns & two third brass guns together with a Muskatoon, (Archives of MD online circa 1696)

So the term was used, referring to arms let to the master of a sloop, as early as 1696. This was probably of a pre-Bess pattern for sure...,

Then there is this...,

An Accot of the Arms &ca brought in and in Good Ordr, lodged at the House of Majr Dorsey within the Port of Annapolis, the 18th day of September Anno Domini 1696.

--100 Carabines with round locks & Varnisht Stocks 100 Carabine belts and swivells—80: Byonets & 80 white belts,
80: Cartouch boxes & 80 black belts—20: Granado punches [grenade bags]—-

Wish they told us what that sort of "carbine" was...,
Other oddities from the Archives of Maryland online...,,

1758..., that there have been returned from Coll. Dagworthy's Company. 86 Firelocks, short Muskets and Carbines,
SO is that 86 Firelocks (consisting of short muskets and carbines) or is that 86 Firelocks, AND short muskets (whatever those were) and carbines...??? What is the difference??

1762.., 86 fire Locks Short Muskets & Carbines, 68 old Muskets and Carbines some without Locks and many with Broken Locks...
So it appears that the 86 firelocks from Colonel Dagworthy's company in 1758 just sat, stored in the same spot for four years..., but what is an "old" musket...??? is that a matchlock or a wheel-lock (doubtful) or a doglock gun?

LD

 

[Artificer]

The term was not foreign, however...,

and that they will be (a)Board, Capt wanted in the new Vesseli, belonging to Mr Davy, Sloop, now bound for England; saying that the Guns lent were two third iron guns & two third brass guns together with a Muskatoon, (Archives of MD online circa 1696)

So the term was used, referring to arms let to the master of a sloop, as early as 1696. This was probably of a pre-Bess pattern for sure...,

Then there is this...,

An Accot of the Arms &ca brought in and in Good Ordr, lodged at the House of Majr Dorsey within the Port of Annapolis, the 18th day of September Anno Domini 1696.

--100 Carabines with round locks & Varnisht Stocks 100 Carabine belts and swivells—80: Byonets & 80 white belts,
80: Cartouch boxes & 80 black belts—20: Granado punches [grenade bags]—-

Wish they told us what that sort of "carbine" was...,
Other oddities from the Archives of Maryland online...,,

1758..., that there have been returned from Coll. Dagworthy's Company. 86 Firelocks, short Muskets and Carbines,
SO is that 86 Firelocks (consisting of short muskets and carbines) or is that 86 Firelocks, AND short muskets (whatever those were) and carbines...??? What is the difference??

1762.., 86 fire Locks Short Muskets & Carbines, 68 old Muskets and Carbines some without Locks and many with Broken Locks...
So it appears that the 86 firelocks from Colonel Dagworthy's company in 1758 just sat, stored in the same spot for four years..., but what is an "old" musket...??? is that a matchlock or a wheel-lock (doubtful) or a doglock gun?

LD

Some guns that might have been there in the early days and may have been left over as late as the FIW:

Flintlock musket, 1690 (c) | Online Collection | National Army Museum, London (nam.ac.uk)

Cavalry carbine, 1689-1702 (c) | Online Collection | National Army Museum, London (nam.ac.uk)

Flintlock dog-lock musket, 1704 | Online Collection | National Army Museum, London (nam.ac.uk)

Gus