early rifle charges

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Spence,

Coot basically understood what I meant, but since you did not, then others might not as well. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused. From what I have read on gunsmithing, it would seem to be that “refreshing the rifling” had at least three meanings, depending on what the gunsmith did. So I will break it down into the three categories.

1. The first category is the simplest and it basically would be running the rifling cutter back through the grooves to clean built up crud out of the grooves. I think this is what one of two civilians who did some gunsmithing on the Lewis and Clark journey did, because it would not require a large, purpose built, rifling bench. It would only require a wood rod, the correct cutter and some paper shims to clean out the rifling. The rifling may have been cut a one or a couple thousands deeper to get rid of rust, but that was all. This technique would not enlarge the caliber.

2. The second category of refreshing the rifling would have required more work in case the edges of the lands were either worn down or had turned rough from rusting. This would be corrected by using a slightly wider rifling cutter than had been used the first time. It would have been made so the cutter centered the new rifling cut in the old grooves and then widened them very slightly and perhaps or even probably cut the old grooves a little deeper. I may be mistaken, but I think this technique would have required a rifling bench to ensure the new cutter cut into the old grooves correctly, as more force and controlled direction was required to cut the grooves wider than just clean out old rifling grooves. Again, this technique would not enlarge the caliber.

3. The third category seems to have been still referred to as “refreshing the rifling,” though it was more of a period colloquial expression rather than an accurate technical term. In this case when the rifle owner brought the rifle to the gunsmith for refreshing the rifling, which seems to have been a commonly known maintenance requirement. Then either through the customers description of the difference in the rifle’s performance and any differences in loading or from what the gunsmith found in his examination of the bore, the lands were seen to have been either rusted or worn or both, then the lands had to have been reamed smoothly and as accurately as possible throughout the length of the bore. This reaming would have enlarged the caliber to get the bore of consistent size throughout the barrel, though there would have been a very slight taper in the bore down very slightly from the breech to the smaller diameter at the muzzle, due to the way the period reamers cut the metal in the bore ”“ which was very slightly less metal cut away as it neared the muzzle. At this point, period documentation is uncertain or nonexistent on how it was done and it is one of many questions I intend on posing to the gunsmiths at Colonial Williamsburg on my next visit.

I don’t know if they were able to ream out some of the diameter of the old bore size to get the lands back in shape, but not all the surface of the old lands. This because I have not actually worked with period reamers. I suspect they would have had to ream out most or all of the metal down to or just beyond the bottom of the old rifling grooves, but they may not have needed to ream that much. If they were able to just ream the bore down a bit to clean up the lands along the length of the barrel, then the caliber would not be enlarged as much as if they had to ream the bore so most or all of the original rifling grooves were cut out of the bore in this process. In either case, it would most likely still be seen as “freshening the riffling” by the customer, though in this last case the gunsmith may or would have needed to also cut the customer’s mold larger for the larger size ball required.

There is a further problem in that there really isn’t good period documentation on how often the technique described in (3.) above was required/done over time during the service life of a rifle, so we can only speculate on how much a rifle’s bore was enlarged over the years, done for normal maintenance of the rifle. We also will probably never know if a rifle was originally one size and when it needed freshening, the owner may have deliberately had the gunsmith make the bore larger to better suit his needs. It may/would have been cheaper than buying a whole different rifle.

Now as to the comparison I was trying to make with smooth bore barrels that were rifled by those like the Geddy brothers in Williamsburg, that could skew rifle calibers larger. I know gun barrels were imported finished, some with rifling and some rough bored. However, by 1751 when the Geddy Brothers were advertising their rifling service, there were already “boring mills” in operation in Pennsylvania for at least two decades that made and provided rough bored barrels to gunsmiths to turn into both smooth bore and rifle guns. These PA made barrels were already available in and around the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia where rifle making went on. Way back east in Williamsburg, there was not much of a rifle culture in eastern Virginia until around the time of the AWI some 20-25 years after the Geddy Brothers advertised their service and many of those riflemen came from the Shenandoah Valley or what is today South West Virginia and further west. (The furthest East and earliest period that I have been able to document a gunsmith who commonly made rifles was in Orange County in the 1760’s and that is two counties west of Fredericksburg, which in turn was a good distance west from Williamsburg.)

Is it possible for the Geddy brothers to have reamed and rifled barrels and supplied bullet molds for gunsmiths who built rifles further west in Virginia? Yes, it is possible, though not very probable as those riflesmiths working further west in Virginia had their own square reamers to ream rough bore barrels, finish reamers and made the bullet molds for the common calibers their customers wanted. IF the Geddy brothers actually rifled any barrels at all, it would seem they rifled smooth bore guns common to their area of Virginia and that may or probably were in the smaller smooth bore calibers of the day. Now, I don’t know what the smallest smooth bore common caliber was in the period, but I know that .62 caliber was a popular smooth bore caliber. So if they rifled a .62 smooth bore barrel, it would have skewed the rifle calibers larger than the more common .52 caliber.

Gus
 
I assume some of this is documented? If so, it would be interesting to see. If not, then there is too much speculation in it for me to be comfortable.

I have collected only one item about a boring mill:

The Pennsylvania Gazette
March 19, 1772
Carlisle, March 13, 1772.
A tract of land and plantation, situate on the west side of Big Codorus Creek, opposite to the last above described tract, on which is a large and commodious saw mill (which, with 2 saws, cuts two logs at the same time, by one water wheel) a mill for grinding sickles, and boring gun barrels , a large square log dwelling house, a barn and stables, an house for a saw miller, and an orchard;

And one about boring and grinding:

The Pennsylvania Gazette
June 26, 1776
WANTED immediately, TWO or three good Hands, that understand welding Gun barrels; or good Smiths, inclined to be instructed in the said Business; also wanted three good Hands to blow and strike in the said Business: Any such Persons may meet with good Encouragement, by applying to JOSHUA TOMLINSON, at the Gulph Mill, near Lancaster Road, 14 Miles from Philadelphia. For Particulars, apply to JOHN NICHOLSON, Gunsmith, near the Drawbridge, Philadelphia. N.B. An Apprentice, not under 14 Years of Age, is wanted to learn the welding, boring, and grinding of Gun barrels . Apply as above.

Spence
 
This is the earliest documented PA boring mill for gun barrels I have yet come across, though more followed in the 1720's and 30's.

"On August 15, 1719, Robert Baker had Jacob Taylor, Surveyor, with permission from William Penn, and Lancaster Co, lay out a site for erection of a gun boring mill at the mouth of Pequea Creek."


I have found this one on numerous sites, but this one has the most information about it. The gun boring mill flourished until Robert's death in 1728, but the discovery of Iron ore deposits located on the West bank of the Susquehanna River led others to operate gun boring mills in that region.
http://bakerdesign.com/bakerhistory1/early_history.html

Gus
 
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There is also documentation that complete rifles and rifled barrels were being imported into Philadelphia in the 1740's by Caspar Wistar. The problem is there never seems to documentation on the names of the gunsmiths to who Caspar sold the rifle barrels. But what that does tell us is that there was a demand for the separate rifle barrels earlier than the riflesmiths in PA or VA who are most commonly documented today.

Gus
 
Inventories of gunsmiths estates have included rifling sticks or freshing sticks. Typical historic method of freshing rifling is to use a hickory rod with a relieved waist which, inserted into the bore a ways, allowed casting of a slug that fit the old grooves. A cutter was then inserted into one of the grooves (in reverse or "sticking out" on the slug). With a cross handle free to spin, this was used to clean up the grooves and with paper shims inserted, allowed deepening of the grooves without the need of a rifling bench. When this was complete in all grooves, the slug could be re-cast and another cutter could be used to finish off the tops of the lands. For field freshing such as on the Lewis and Clark expedition, probably 0.002" was enough to restore smooth loading without ruining patches and enough bite for the rifling to grip the ball.

I'm not sure reaming can be done on a rifled barrel. Reaming typically follows boring (drilling). I'd think a square reamer would chatter a great deal spinning over the odd numbered lands. Using a cutter to finish the tops of the lands, just the same way as the grooves were done, is how it has been done in the current historic period.
 
Rich Pierce said:
I'm not sure reaming can be done on a rifled barrel. Reaming typically follows boring (drilling). I'd think a square reamer would chatter a great deal spinning over the odd numbered lands.

I was thinking that likely and then I went back to the link below.
http://flintriflesmith.com/ToolsandTechniques/barrel_making.htm

Yep, I think you are right and don't think that was how they did it.

Rich Pierce said:
Using a cutter to finish the tops of the lands, just the same way as the grooves were done, is how it has been done in the current historic period.

Not so sure about that? How would they have been able to keep the lands curved "true" for a uniform bore size? Maybe looking at the rifling "fixture rod" in the link, I don't realize what you mean?

Was it possible they made a new boring bit slightly larger to take out some of the lands? No, probably not.

OK, I think I have it, perhaps? To smooth out the lands, they could have bore cast plugs out of lead and applied a paste of abrasive powder and oil and then finally emery powder paste emery to lap the lands?

This would have enlarged the bore size slightly, but not a lot. If they had to really take metal off the lands, then they most likely did use a slightly larger boring bit to do it.

Gus
 
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Rich Pierce said:
Typical historic method of freshing rifling is to use a hickory rod with a relieved waist which, inserted into the bore a ways, allowed casting of a slug that fit the old grooves. A cutter was then inserted into one of the grooves (in reverse or "sticking out" on the slug). With a cross handle free to spin, this was used to clean up the grooves and with paper shims inserted, allowed deepening of the grooves without the need of a rifling bench. When this was complete in all grooves, the slug could be re-cast and another cutter could be used to finish off the tops of the lands. For field freshing such as on the Lewis and Clark expedition, probably 0.002" was enough to restore smooth loading without ruining patches and enough bite for the rifling to grip the ball.
Is this recorded it that detail somewhere, or is it the modern consensus of how it was done?

Spence
 
Spence,

There is very little documentation on how gunsmiths did their work, most of all because the Guilds were trying to keep their trade secrets, secret. Individual gunsmiths may have taken notes when they went through their apprenticeships and some may have kept note books or ledgers, but if such documentation was done, most or all of it has been lost to history.

The most complete treatise on gunsmithing in the 18th century was done in German and it was translated in one of the Journals of the Historical Armsmaking Technology. A VERY interesting read for those of us who are interested in the subject. The problem, though, is it vaguely describes how things were done and not step by step or "how to" procedures.

Gus
 
IOW, just like all of the period trades that people have reclaimed/saved/done in modern times by using experimental archeology, things have been "rediscovered" by using the tools and materials that were available in the day.

Gus
 
One thing I'd look for in remaining gunsmith tools from the period is some means of honing a barrel after it was bored smooth. I had a smith ream out the chokes on some shotgun barrels.

My bad decision for not asking to look at examples of his work first. Tool marks were terrible. Guy was a gun butcher rather than a smith. Took the barrels to another smith who polished them smoother than a baby's butt for very little money.

Point is, if the bore wasn't honed well after reaming, it would be a mess.
 
Spence, most of these techniques are covered in Ned Roberts book The Cap-lock Rifle. Also will check my Foxfire books. It is an assumption not a certainty that the techniques passed down are essentially the same as period techniques.
 
Rich Pierce said:
It is an assumption not a certainty that the techniques passed down are essentially the same as period techniques.
And Artificer said:

IOW, just like all of the period trades that people have reclaimed/saved/done in modern times by using experimental archeology, things have been "rediscovered" by using the tools and materials that were available in the day.
It can be very confusing to those of us seriously interested in primary documentation when someone, while discussing a topic, says flat-out that it was done 'thus and so' without providing any information as to why that belief exists. Was it really done that way in the day, and the primary reference just isn't being provided, or is this what we imagine, based on our best modern efforts to recreate it using our limited knowledge? There is a very real difference.

Some indication of the basis of our understanding of a topic is quick and easy to provide, and can avoid a lot of uncertainty.

Spence
 
Brown Bear,

The long square reamer shown in the link from Gary Brumfield (Past and deceased Master Gunsmith at Colonial Williamsburg after Wallace Gusler) will give an incredibly smooth final reaming to the bore of either a smooth bore or the final reaming of a rifle barrel before the grooves are cut.

Wallace Gusler described the shavings left from this reamer as "fine as face powder." So no further polishing was needed after that reaming.

Gus
 
The 18th century German text I mentioned that was translated into English in the JHAT, is the earliest and most complete text on rifles, though as I mentioned, it is not a full step by step procedure, but it does come with an illustration of tools and good text. Other JHAT journals show other period documentation of tools from Diderot and other sources as well as experimental archeology procedures.

Diderot's encyclopedia shows some of the tools, but has almost nothing describing the techniques of the trade.

"The Perfect Gun," that you mentioned is exceptionally good on early smoothbores, but (I don't think?) anything about rifles and there are some problems with the illustration/s that was no doubt done by an Artist who did not work the trade.

There is one early engraving that shows period "rubbers" that were very long draw files used by two men to put the flats on period octagon rifles.

Ned Roberts' book is good, though a lot of the tools there are 19th century and some even early 20th century.

"Firearms in Colonial America: The Impact on History and Technology 1492-1792," Hardcover ”“ November 17, 1980 by M. L. Brown has some wonderful information I have not found anywhere else and it is well foot noted. I picked up my copy at the Smithsonian not long after it was published.

"A Catalogue of Tools for Watch and Clock Makers," by John Wyke is the republication of three or four original tool catalogues with some plates engraved as early as 1755 and as late as very early 19th century. Though described as tools for clock makers, it contains many of the hand tools common to any of the metal working trades and even some wood working tools.

"Colonial Frontier Guns" by T.M. Hamilton has some exceptional and singular information on 18th century period GO and NO GO Gauges for bore sizes as well as other information that I have not found anywhere else.

I have other books on my shelf that show some small amounts of information on 17th/18th century gunsmithing, but the books above give the best documented information.

Finally, some of the information I pass on is from loads of questions asked at Colonial Williamsburg and of other knowledgeable people at museums, and even those involved with experimental archeology of the trade.

Gus
 
Spence10 said:
***SNIP***
And one about boring and grinding:

The Pennsylvania Gazette
June 26, 1776
WANTED immediately, TWO or three good Hands, that understand welding Gun barrels; or good Smiths, inclined to be instructed in the said Business; also wanted three good Hands to blow and strike in the said Business: Any such Persons may meet with good Encouragement, by applying to JOSHUA TOMLINSON, at the Gulph Mill, near Lancaster Road, 14 Miles from Philadelphia. For Particulars, apply to JOHN NICHOLSON, Gunsmith, near the Drawbridge, Philadelphia. N.B. An Apprentice, not under 14 Years of Age, is wanted to learn the welding, boring, and grinding of Gun barrels . Apply as above.

Spence

Hi Spence,

I would hesitate to use that second one as an example of a gun boring location because he is looking for apprentices who understand or are willing to learn "Welding gun barrels". Then the note about an apprentice no less than age 14 "is wanted to learn the welding, boring, and grinding of Gun barrels." The use of the word boring there may very well be interchangeable with what we call reaming, especially since it is used with learning to weld gun barrels.

The normal procedure for making a gun barrel by welding is to hammer forge-weld a flat piece of iron into a tube around a mandrel: remove the mandrel; and then ream out the bore until it is straight and smooth. Once it is reamed (bored out?) then the rifling is cut. I would tend to think the "boring" he's talking about is really the "reaming out" part of the process.

I also have to wonder about "rifling smoothbores" (not in your above quote). Outside of smooth rifles, which used a rifle-sized barrel and rifle architecture, I wonder if cutting rifling in the thin tubes used in normal fowlers and muskets would leave enough barrel to withstand the pressures. The barrels on those are just so thin by comparison to a rifle barrel.

I was able to handle an 18th ct. Brown Bess (2nd land pattern) at a blackpowder meet in VA a few years back and was surprised it is not nearly as robust as most reproductions. And, the barrel was not particularly robust either. I would personally be skeptical of rifling that barrel. I just wouldn't trust it to stay together with the pressures from a rifle load.

Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
Dan
 
Twisted,

With due respect, Spence's quote is exactly on par with period "Gun Boring Mills." These places were known for hammering out Iron fine enough for gun barrels, then welding them up, then rough boring them to sizes similar to what their customers wanted. The rough barrels were made with different size mandrels and then further rough bored with boring bits to suit what their customers needed. Their customers could further rough bore the barrels, if needed, or do the final reaming, then outside finishing, then fitting breech plugs, etc.

This was the same thing as done in boring mills in England and was one of the first break down of gunsmithing into sub categories here in America, as was commonly done in England and the Continent.

IOW, Gun Boring Mills were places where rough gun barrels were made less expensively, because they invested in the tools and equipment to do that less expensively than individual gunsmiths could do them.

Gus

Edited to add: Oops, forgot to mention Gun Boring Mills usually/often did the rough grinding on the outside of the barrels as well.
 
twisted_1in66 said:
The normal procedure for making a gun barrel by welding is to hammer forge-weld a flat piece of iron into a tube around a mandrel: remove the mandrel; and then ream out the bore until it is straight and smooth.
I'm sure that is the idea most people have of the process, but that was the way only "common" barrels were made. There were other, much better and more complex ways of doing it. The first three chapters of the book by Wm. Cleator, 1789, An Essay on Shooting, gives a very good summary of the actual practices.
https://books.google.com/books?id=...VAhUs34MKHdXMDwgQ6AEIMzAD#v=onepage&q&f=false

The same basic procedures are described in The Perfect gun, Portuguese, 1718.

Spence
 
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Spence10 said:
Spence10 said:
Just from curiosity, does anyone have a citation from the period of a rifle being bored out to a smoothbore?
So nobody can point to an instance of it being recorded that a rifle was bored out to a smoothbore.....

Spence

I had to switch computers a couple days ago and since then have been to busy to respond to this.

There is a notation for "A gun draw bored" for 25 cents in Leonard Reedy's account book, which Kindig thinks indicates a rifle being reamed out smooth. Found in Kindig's Thoughts, obviously.

Honestly, that is about as much as you are likely to find in the written word - there aren't many documents like Reedy's book that have survived, and it isn't likely to be terribly clear from the entries what exactly was being done.

I'm fairly certain that I've read of at least one smoothrifle that showed signs of rifling inside the bore (not just the muzzle), but I can't remember where.
 
Elnathan said:
Honestly, that is about as much as you are likely to find in the written word
And yet, I think it is fair to say, it is widely accepted that this was done, and done a lot. Every old rifle-stocked smoothbore you see was supposedly once a rifle.

There is a name for beliefs widely and strongly held in the absence of evidence.... it's religion. :haha:

BP shooting is an interesting hobby.

Spence
 
Spence10 said:
Elnathan said:
Honestly, that is about as much as you are likely to find in the written word
And yet, I think it is fair to say, it is widely accepted that this was done, and done a lot. Every old rifle-stocked smoothbore you see was supposedly once a rifle.

Never heard anyone claim that every smooth rifle was originally a rifle. Rifles are mentioned much more often in the original documents than are smoothrifles, far more than the proportion of rifled to smooth that exist today, I think. Maybe that is significant.

The archeology, i.e., the guns themselves, are more likely to be informative in this question, I think.

There is a name for beliefs widely and strongly held in the absence of evidence.... it's religion. :haha:

I find it interesting that there are so many people out there who consider a belief in the non-material to be merely an artifact of evolution, but don't similarly consider the idea of logic, time, or cause and effect to also be artifacts of evolution.

There is a term for incoherency such as that...it's superstition.
 
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