Early Wheellock Mechanisms

[TobJohn]

While not a wheellock, it does show the same early attempt at sear dis-engagement. But as you mention, the design didn't last. Better ideas soon came along. LOL
If you haven't seen this lock before, it has a unique safety feature where the frizzen can be positioned away from the gun while the pan cover is still closed. Never seen another like it. I have additional pics if you like.

Rick

I am always down to see more locks! I am actually looking though the Swedish museum system's database right now and I believe they have a couple with a similar system.

 

[rickystl]

Well, I didn't want to corrupt your original Thread ref "wheellocks". But I thought in this case it would be worth posting to get a close-up of the similar, early sear arrangement.
But here are a couple more pics of the Scandinavian lock.
As you may recall, a snaphaunce (Eastern anyway) lock, for a safety, would simply keep the frizzen in the forward position out of striking distance from the hammer.
This lock accomplishes the same, but in a more complicated, yet interesting way. Also note both the main and frizzen springs are one spring. And the shape of the top screw in wheellock style.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

Well, I didn't want to corrupt your original Thread ref "wheellocks". But I thought in this case it would be worth posting to get a close-up of the similar, early sear arrangement.
But here are a couple more pics of the Scandinavian lock.
As you may recall, a snaphaunce (Eastern anyway) lock, for a safety, would simply keep the frizzen in the forward position out of striking distance from the hammer.
This lock accomplishes the same, but in a more complicated, yet interesting way. Also note both the main and frizzen springs are one spring. And the shape of the top screw in wheellock style.View attachment 240477View attachment 240478View attachment 240479View attachment 240480View attachment 240481

Rick

Not corrupting at all! The method of pins keeping all the pieces together also matches wheellocks from the same era, so another good example of everything being intertwined. The one frizzen and mainspring, as you pointed out, is my favorite feature of these. An interesting efficiency that I wonder why it wasn’t copied more.

I’ve seen an example of a fishtail musket with a Scandinavian lock that Armin Koenig built. I wonder if he would ever be interested in making another…

 

[rickystl]

Not corrupting at all! The method of pins keeping all the pieces together also matches wheellocks from the same era, so another good example of everything being intertwined. The one frizzen and mainspring, as you pointed out, is my favorite feature of these. An interesting efficiency that I wonder why it wasn’t copied more.

I’ve seen an example of a fishtail musket with a Scandinavian lock that Armin Koenig built. I wonder if he would ever be interested in making another…

I've often thought this Scandinavian lock looks so.....well....contraptionanilized for the lack of a better term. LOL Yet super interesting conversational piece, as locks go.

As far as an early Scandinavian snaplock gun goes....if you can wait about 10 years, or less, you can purchase mine. By then, I'll be too old to shoot it off hand. LOL

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

I've often thought this Scandinavian lock looks so.....well....contraptionanilized for the lack of a better term. LOL Yet super interesting conversational piece, as locks go.

As far as an early Scandinavian snaplock gun goes....if you can wait about 10 years, or less, you can purchase mine. By then, I'll be too old to shoot it off hand. LOL

RickView attachment 240850

I think I remember seeing Dale call dibs, don’t want to cut him in line!
When I spoke with Armin, a German stock (like on wheellock hunting rifles) Swedish snaphance calivers was one of his next potential projects, so there is some hope for something similar, just not quite as cool as a full musket.

From a post Michael Tromner made years ago:

Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - A 1548 Nuremberg Dagger-grip Over-and-Under Double Wheellock Pistol

 

[rickystl]

I think I remember seeing Dale call dibs, don’t want to cut him in line!
When I spoke with Armin, a German stock (like on wheellock hunting rifles) Swedish snaphance calivers was one of his next potential projects, so there is some hope for something similar, just not quite as cool as a full musket.

From a post Michael Tromner made years ago:
View attachment 240853
Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - A 1548 Nuremberg Dagger-grip Over-and-Under Double Wheellock Pistol

I think your right about Dale wanting first dibbs.

Every time I see any photos from Michael's original collection., I just drewel.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

I think your right about Dale wanting first dibbs.

Every time I see any photos from Michael's original collection., I just drewel.

Rick

The picture and the linked post are actually Armin’s all self built armory! The huge matchlock musket on his wall, as well as a few others, are replicas of Michael’s original guns. Makes sense they were friends.

I completely agree on Michael’s collection though. When I see the pictures of the full rack of matchlocks (and others) he had, I wish I could go through and look at each one.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

"In this early pistol, the trigger forces an extension of metal between the spring and the lockplate, moving the sear out of the wheel:"

Taken all together, it is interesting to see that they took a familiar triggering mechanism, and then tried it on multiple different kinds of locks. Even more interesting because in all applications, it was a technological dead end.

While not a wheellock, it does show the same early attempt at sear dis-engagement.

To me, it looks like the concept of a long spring originating forward of the lock/action to drive or rotate the '****/serpentine' was derived from these early 'snap locks', like this one Brian Anderson had made for me.

I think your right about Dale wanting first dibs.

Yes Rick, would love 1st dibs on that Scandanavian snaplock, huzzah! It will then go to TobJohn when I'm too old to shoot it ...

 

[TobJohn]

To me, it looks like the concept of a long spring originating forward of the lock/action to drive or rotate the '****/serpentine' was derived from these early 'snap locks', like this one Brian Anderson had made for me.

View attachment 241126




Yes Rick, would love 1st dibs on that Scandanavian snaplock, huzzah! It will then go to TobJohn when I'm too old to shoot it ...

I had not considered that influence on spring design, but that is a very good observation!
Here is another musket that shows the same setup. The longer I look, the less coincidental it seems:

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

LOVE those fishtail stocks!

 

[rickystl]

"Yes Rick, would love 1st dibs on that Scandanavian snaplock, huzzah! It will then go to TobJohn when I'm too old to shoot it ..."

Duly Noted.

Rick

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

I have been collecting images of multi shot wheellocks, so if you do want to give it a go, I might be able to find something inspiring. I also found some photos of someone’s replica of the dagger grip double barrel wheellock, and that actually seems like a more approachable project for anyone trying to make a double shot wheellock.

Hmmmm ... is that the spanner I see? At first glance I thought it was a belt hook ...

 

[TobJohn]

Hmmmm ... is that the spanner I see? At first glance I thought it was a belt hook ...

View attachment 242263

From this angle, it looks directly attached to the lock plate. I’ve been trying to track down the original, but Italian museums are hard to look through or email.

 

[TobJohn]

Speaking of early wheellock spanners, I recently learned that a lot of the wing nut style spanners were pinned on to the spindle.
Here is an example of a removable one:

When I’m back in Virginia, I will try and get some images from the book that has the pinned on ones.
In the meantime, the Titian portrait of Charles V shows one with an attached spanner:

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Ahhh, I see it now, it is affixed as an axial support for the tumbler and I bet also to function as a belt hook.

 

[TobJohn]

I am back from philly and it turns out I have an image someone else had taken of a wheellock with a pinned on wingnut spanner:

It is in the exact book I was going to use, so a convenient time saver.

 

[Lubomir Adamec]

"V tejto ranej pištoli spúšť vynúti predĺženie kovu medzi pružinou a zámkovou doskou, čím posunie zadnú časť z kolesa:"


Ahoj John

Tu je skorý škandinávsky snaplock z mojej zbierky. Domnievam sa, že tento zámok bol postavený tak, aby fungoval na rovnakom princípe ako vyššie. V tomto prípade je možné spúšť namontovaná na pažbe zbrane, pričom horná časť samotnej spúšte má široký klinovitý tvar, aby zabrala zadnú časť sear/pružiny a posunula ju dovnútra, preč od poistnej dosky, čo umožňuje pád kladiva dopredu.

RickView attachment 240422View attachment 240423View attachment 240424View attachment 240425

 

[Loyalist Dave]

For the benefit of the folks who don't speak Slovak, the above post reads

"In this early gun, the trigger forces an extension of the metal between the spring and the lockplate, thereby displacing the breech from the wheel:"


Hi John

Here is an early Scandinavian snaplock from my collection. I believe this lock was built to work on the same principle as above. In this case, a stock-mounted trigger is possible, with the top of the trigger itself having a wide wedge shape to engage the rear of the sear/spring and move it inward, away from the safety plate, allowing the hammer to fall forward.

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LD

 

[TobJohn]

Thanks for sharing the lock!

Is that a miniature copy of the same lock?

 

[rickystl]

Yes, thank you Lubomir for sharing this photo. Your lock is very similar to mine. And it sounds as if the trigger is actuated in the same manner on both locks.

And thanks Dave for the translation. Some very interesting items/information from our newer Eastern members is turning up on the Forum.

I've posted this before, but will do so again at this juncture. Another variation of a Scandinavian style snaplock from around 1600. (This is a TRS copy). It uses the more familiar trigger bar mounting. But the sear/spring operate in the same manner by moving it away from the lock plate when firing. But in this case, the frizzen and pan cover are two separate pieces (like a snaphaunce). And the pan cover must be manually moved forward to expose the priming powder before firing (like a matchlock). Sort of a hybrid style of lock.

Rick