East European Flintlock Pistol?

[BritJoe]

I wonder if anyone knows anything about this style of pistol? My gut tells me it's not as old as it looks, possibly mid 19th Century and the words Eastern Europe, Ottoman and Turkish spring to mind. Overall it has the look and feel of having been made by a competent craftsman working at speed and cutting corners for example the pattern on the stock is erratic while the embellishments seem to be there to make the gun look like an expensive piece but without the actual quality. The ramrod has now merged with the stock and was probably only ever ornamental which I believe is a feature of Eastern guns. There is a makers mark on the barrel, it's tempting to think it reads "London" but it could be "Lowdem" or something else entirely and there are a couple of "proof" marks which again are indecipherable. The butt cap is an off white metal, not silver or brass while the rest of the furniture is iron.

Whatever, with the lightening of the wood around the lock and enlarged touch hole it does seem to have been rather well used in it's time.

Length 18 inches, cal .64

So any ideas or pointers?

Thanks

 

[Cel]

It is indeed an Ottoman pistol (today's Turkey). Characteristic for this is the inlay of silver wire and the cleaning rod, which is only there for decoration. These pistols almost always have a frizen with vertical grooves. The Ottoman Empire has always lagged behind Europe in terms of weapons. When the first rear loaders were used here, the flint lock was still widely used in southern Europe. I think they were made throughout the 19th century.

 

[BritJoe]

Thank you Cel, that pretty much aligns with what I was thinking, except that the frizzen lacks the expected grooves. I need to find a book and do some research as my thoughts were only based on half forgotten articles I've read here and there. My other gut reaction is these are probably rather rare now because once the owner had lost interest they were probably only just interesting enough not to throw away but not valuable enough to look after and over time many have simply rotted away. They have little intrinsic value, are not good enough to interest a collector or end up in a museum so are rarely written about. A bit similar to a simple percussion pistol I once had, unproofed and probably made by a blacksmith, a type rarely seen these days but which I suspect were once probably quite common in England.

 

[rickystl]

Hi Brit

Agree with Cel. Your pistol is what's commonly referred to as an Ottoman Kubur (horse) pistol. They were made in the thousands, at one of the many gun shops in the Balkans. Often with locks and barrels imported from Europe and assembled locally. And were in continual use through at least the 3rd Quarter of the 19th Century.
There is a long Thread in the Pre-Flintlock Forum that discusses Ottoman guns generally, including these pistols. In case you're interested.

Rick

 

[BritJoe]

Thanks Rick, appreciate your reply. Been away for a while and only browsing occasionally on my mobile hence lateness of my reply. I shall be reading that thread, I know it's of little value but I find it to be a fascinating piece although perhaps not as much as my grand daughter who thinks its a "proper" pirates pistol. I'll be doing some reading around Ottoman guns, probably with this one in hand while speculating the stories it could tell.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Wall hanger. And, it is still wise to avoid Turkish made guns. DAMHIK

 

[Flintlock1640]

I haven't been on this site in a while so, sorry for the late reply. For what it is worth, that barrel looks real to me. The tang has been modified but with the three-stage barrel, it's 1600s. Now everything can be copied so I would pull the barrel and make sure it has a proper tang and not just a pipe but it looks early British or Dutch with the breach ribs.

 

[Perkinator]

Just bought one similar. Posted an ID thread. Mine is the basic shape, but different details. It does have the grooved frizzen. The barrel seems solid enough, although it may be pitted deeply accross from the touch hole, from what I could tell with a flashlight.

 

[Rudyard]

I wonder if anyone knows anything about this style of pistol? My gut tells me it's not as old as it looks, possibly mid 19th Century and the words Eastern Europe, Ottoman and Turkish spring to mind. Overall it has the look and feel of having been made by a competent craftsman working at speed and cutting corners for example the pattern on the stock is erratic while the embellishments seem to be there to make the gun look like an expensive piece but without the actual quality. The ramrod has now merged with the stock and was probably only ever ornamental which I believe is a feature of Eastern guns. There is a makers mark on the barrel, it's tempting to think it reads "London" but it could be "Lowdem" or something else entirely and there are a couple of "proof" marks which again are indecipherable. The butt cap is an off white metal, not silver or brass while the rest of the furniture is iron.

Whatever, with the lightening of the wood around the lock and enlarged touch hole it does seem to have been rather well used in it's time.

Length 18 inches, cal .64

So any ideas or pointers?

View attachment 149995

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View attachment 149997

Thanks

The lock looks like a Ketland & would date it late 18 early 19th c the style is older its just had a rough life not tourist junk, not worth a lot going on condition but still a study piece . Pirates pistol? who knows its an old trade still flourishing but not with such pistols , (I think they now like A K s whatever they are) The' steel/frizzen face looks to be re faced which points to it haveing seen a good bit of use but as lickley seen more use as a dress item in later years .My calculated guess .
Rudyard

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

I wonder if anyone knows anything about this style of pistol? My gut tells me it's not as old as it looks, possibly mid 19th Century and the words Eastern Europe, Ottoman and Turkish spring to mind. Overall it has the look and feel of having been made by a competent craftsman working at speed and cutting corners for example the pattern on the stock is erratic while the embellishments seem to be there to make the gun look like an expensive piece but without the actual quality. The ramrod has now merged with the stock and was probably only ever ornamental which I believe is a feature of Eastern guns. There is a makers mark on the barrel, it's tempting to think it reads "London" but it could be "Lowdem" or something else entirely and there are a couple of "proof" marks which again are indecipherable. The butt cap is an off white metal, not silver or brass while the rest of the furniture is iron.

Whatever, with the lightening of the wood around the lock and enlarged touch hole it does seem to have been rather well used in it's time.

Length 18 inches, cal .64

So any ideas or pointers?

View attachment 149995

View attachment 149996

View attachment 149997

Thanks

This is just an FYI and nothing about your gun, however I spent 28 months in Afghanistan. I was all over that country, (Route Clearance). Been to Bazaars on every FOB. These were for sale at every one of them. They looked just as old and just as original as yours. The Afghanis' were experts at making these for the Bazaar sales. They went for about 20$. US military and contractors sent thousands of them home. Many can now be found on Gunbroker and other gun sales sites. All I'm saying is, have it checked by an expert, (like a museum curator) before deciding it's the real thing. Semper Fi.