flyfisher76544
45 Cal.
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2005
- Messages
- 508
- Reaction score
- 3
Jethro224 said:
Lol, that or once it gets wet. :blah:
Effects of Lee R.E.A.L. bullets on game?
- Thread starter walley
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
Lol, that or once it gets wet. :blah:
oletymepreacher
40 Cal.
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2007
- Messages
- 297
- Reaction score
- 2
Tracking is an interesting hunt in itself, and it can be a year-round exercise. My favorite game is elk. Tracking them throughout the year gains me the knowledge to head them off during hunting seasons. Learning the game's habits, where they go in different times of the year, where they go when under pressure, where they bed down, when and where they feed, all make the short time we have to hunt all the more interesting. Taking along a notebook, gps, camera, map and compass when 'hunting' out of season are the short list of gear needed. Killing your big game can be done without knowing a thing about them. Some of us are just plain lucky. I find that year round tracking is a good way to stay in shape for the season, and the getting into shape is not the boring exercising of stair climbing, weight lifting, or running.
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2004
- Messages
- 14,767
- Reaction score
- 320
Yup, better a year round tracker than a gym rat.
Many thanks to all who offered their helpful advice and information. This was my first season using the r.e.a.l. bullet, and I wasn't sure what to expect from it's performance on game. I have shot two other deer that reacted the same way as that one did after the shot. One with a 45cal maxi ball and the other with a 243cal 80gr bullet. Both of these ran about thirty yards and stopped, staggered, fell, expired. Except this one didn't stop. And I haven't recovered any evidence (Buzzards/Crows) that she is down anywhere since. So I had to write her off as a near miss.
Update:
On 11-14-10 I got another chance to find out the answer to my question with much better results. I shot this doe at 70yds from the same stand. There was quite a bit of hair at the POI. She went crashing and fall'n down the hill as she sped off. Blood was evident. It look like it was being thrown from a bucket. Brushed on and sprayed all over saplings, switch cain, and the ground as well. I found pieces of lung and something dark I presumed to be liver in a few places along the blood trail. I was pleased with the bullet's results, but surprised at the outcome. The bullet entered the right side lung area, turned and went thru the paunch, and exited thru the front portion of the off side hind quarter. This deer reached at least the 400yd mark and laid down. Then the only sign of blood lasted about 30yds beyond that. I went back and got my son and his friend to assist me. We started the circle and search method, and found her on the other side of a thicket in a creek about 125yds from the last sign of blood. I couldn't believe how far this deer traveled in her condition, and still can't really.
This is a shot of the POI. The picture doesn't show quite as much hair that was actually there.
A view of my stand location from the POI.
My son and his friend bringing her out. I took a hatchet and cleared the way for them. :haha:
The entrance wound. How can a deer with a hit like this, losing blood like a pumping station travel over 500yds?
Got her home.
Got this one 11-15-10 from the same stand at about 30yds with a spine shot. Didn't get a pass-thru on her though. She was DRT.
Gun & load was. CVA Stalker carbine rifle, 75gr fffg Goex, 320gr r.e.a.l. bullet, lubed with stumpy's moose snot recipe, and a remington no. 11 cap. I'm done with the deer for this season, gonna get after the squirrels now.
Update:
On 11-14-10 I got another chance to find out the answer to my question with much better results. I shot this doe at 70yds from the same stand. There was quite a bit of hair at the POI. She went crashing and fall'n down the hill as she sped off. Blood was evident. It look like it was being thrown from a bucket. Brushed on and sprayed all over saplings, switch cain, and the ground as well. I found pieces of lung and something dark I presumed to be liver in a few places along the blood trail. I was pleased with the bullet's results, but surprised at the outcome. The bullet entered the right side lung area, turned and went thru the paunch, and exited thru the front portion of the off side hind quarter. This deer reached at least the 400yd mark and laid down. Then the only sign of blood lasted about 30yds beyond that. I went back and got my son and his friend to assist me. We started the circle and search method, and found her on the other side of a thicket in a creek about 125yds from the last sign of blood. I couldn't believe how far this deer traveled in her condition, and still can't really.
This is a shot of the POI. The picture doesn't show quite as much hair that was actually there.
A view of my stand location from the POI.
My son and his friend bringing her out. I took a hatchet and cleared the way for them. :haha:
The entrance wound. How can a deer with a hit like this, losing blood like a pumping station travel over 500yds?
Got her home.
Got this one 11-15-10 from the same stand at about 30yds with a spine shot. Didn't get a pass-thru on her though. She was DRT.
Gun & load was. CVA Stalker carbine rifle, 75gr fffg Goex, 320gr r.e.a.l. bullet, lubed with stumpy's moose snot recipe, and a remington no. 11 cap. I'm done with the deer for this season, gonna get after the squirrels now.
paulvallandigham
Passed On
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Messages
- 17,537
- Reaction score
- 94
Bullets fired from MLers have a "habit" of turning direction when they hit flesh. Round Balls don't, as a rule. That is just another reason to use a RB instead of a bullet to shoot game.
Now, some bullets are obviously better than others. If you don't use an OP wad to protect the base of the bullet, that can cause "flyers", too.
IdahoRon uses Paper Patched bullets to take large deer and elk at incredible ranges, regularly, without any problem with the bullets turning in live flesh, for instance. But, few people, other than some BP cartridge target shooters bother to use PP bullets in their rifles. They should learn to roll them, and then use them. The results are simply more predictable. :thumbsup:
Most hunters I have met use conicals, like the Lyman R.E.A.L. bullet, because they have NO experience with using RBs on game, have read too many articles written by shills for the zip gun makers, claiming that a RB can't kill, and fail to do their own penetration testing to decide the matter for themselves. I know a lot of "bullet" shooters with experiences similar to what happened with this deer, who switched to using PRB in their guns for hunting. I don't know anyone who shoots and hunts with a PRB switching to using bullets, unless the range at which they can see game is so long that it makes sense to use PP bullets. :hmm: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Now, some bullets are obviously better than others. If you don't use an OP wad to protect the base of the bullet, that can cause "flyers", too.
IdahoRon uses Paper Patched bullets to take large deer and elk at incredible ranges, regularly, without any problem with the bullets turning in live flesh, for instance. But, few people, other than some BP cartridge target shooters bother to use PP bullets in their rifles. They should learn to roll them, and then use them. The results are simply more predictable. :thumbsup:
Most hunters I have met use conicals, like the Lyman R.E.A.L. bullet, because they have NO experience with using RBs on game, have read too many articles written by shills for the zip gun makers, claiming that a RB can't kill, and fail to do their own penetration testing to decide the matter for themselves. I know a lot of "bullet" shooters with experiences similar to what happened with this deer, who switched to using PRB in their guns for hunting. I don't know anyone who shoots and hunts with a PRB switching to using bullets, unless the range at which they can see game is so long that it makes sense to use PP bullets. :hmm: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
kevthebassman
40 Cal.
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2007
- Messages
- 322
- Reaction score
- 1
I noticed that TC maxi-balls do some acrobatics inside a deer's body as well. Shot one on level ground, bullet entered in the front quarter then took about a 45 degree turn and exited the bottom of her chest. Strange stuff to be sure.
That said, I just got my first round ball kill, and it baffled me a little bit as well. I made a snap shot on a buck that was running straight towards my stand following a hot doe. The ball went in at a shallow angle just below the spine and behind the front shoulder (messed up a tenderloin, for pete's sake!) breaking 5 ribs on it's way in. It made a mess of the lungs, then evidence of it's passing disappeared. The stomach and intestines were undamaged. There was only one hole in the hide, yet the ball was found, flattened out and lodged in a roast in the back leg. Strangest thing I've seen to date. I don't know how the ball got back there without damaging the guts.
That said, I just got my first round ball kill, and it baffled me a little bit as well. I made a snap shot on a buck that was running straight towards my stand following a hot doe. The ball went in at a shallow angle just below the spine and behind the front shoulder (messed up a tenderloin, for pete's sake!) breaking 5 ribs on it's way in. It made a mess of the lungs, then evidence of it's passing disappeared. The stomach and intestines were undamaged. There was only one hole in the hide, yet the ball was found, flattened out and lodged in a roast in the back leg. Strangest thing I've seen to date. I don't know how the ball got back there without damaging the guts.
hoochiepapa
75 Cal.
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2010
- Messages
- 5,853
- Reaction score
- 7
My nephew took a raghorn with his .54 and a maxiball.Killed the bull dead, but the bullet did not upset or anything. He could have used it again.
I'll take Great Plains anyday.
I'll take Great Plains anyday.
Mike,
That's the same result I had with the 45cal maxiball. Shot a spike buck, the ball went thru both lungs, took out 2 ribs on the far side, turned up rearward and took out a chunk of the spine, and loged under the skin on the far side hind quarter. Could'a dropped the maxiball back down the pipe. It wasn't hardly scratched. I would've thought soft lead would disrupt hitting bone with that kind of force.
I'd like to try hunting with a RB load, but so far I haven't found a sweet spot in my rifles using them on paper that I would trust sending toward an animal.
That's the same result I had with the 45cal maxiball. Shot a spike buck, the ball went thru both lungs, took out 2 ribs on the far side, turned up rearward and took out a chunk of the spine, and loged under the skin on the far side hind quarter. Could'a dropped the maxiball back down the pipe. It wasn't hardly scratched. I would've thought soft lead would disrupt hitting bone with that kind of force.
I'd like to try hunting with a RB load, but so far I haven't found a sweet spot in my rifles using them on paper that I would trust sending toward an animal.
paulvallandigham
Passed On
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Messages
- 17,537
- Reaction score
- 94
I don't know what rifle or caliber you are shooting, or what the Rate of Twist is in the barrel, nor how deep the grooves are. BUT, if you are having trouble working up a Round Ball load that is accurate, certainly someone here has the same gun and has already done the work. JUST ASK!
If you don't own a copy of Dutch Schoultz's Black Powder Rifle Accuracy System, you really need to contact him at this site, and send him the $19.95 that he charges for it. Its the best written, Step-by-Step guide to working up an accurate load in any BP rifle. I keep my copy of it here on a shelf over my computer, so I can consult it when someone posts pictures of their spent patches and asks for help in figuring out why they have " flyers" on their targets. :thumbsup:
If you don't own a copy of Dutch Schoultz's Black Powder Rifle Accuracy System, you really need to contact him at this site, and send him the $19.95 that he charges for it. Its the best written, Step-by-Step guide to working up an accurate load in any BP rifle. I keep my copy of it here on a shelf over my computer, so I can consult it when someone posts pictures of their spent patches and asks for help in figuring out why they have " flyers" on their targets. :thumbsup:
Thanks Paul,
All of my other rifles are 1:48 twist and all but one have 28" barrels. Not sure of the grove depths tho. The two I would like to work up RB loads for are flinters. One is a T/C Hawken 45cal and I've used both .020 patch or .018 pillow ticking and a .440 dia ball. The other is a Lyman Trade rifle in 50cal and I also used .020 patch or .018 pillow ticking and a .490 dia ball. The Lyman has never shot a group worth a flip. I often wandered if it may require a .495 ball. It also had a sharp rifling when I got it. It would cut both shooting and cleaning patches. I took a ball, patch , and valve grinding compound and finally honed it enough to clear that up. Actually the first shot off a clean bore would be the most accurate. After that they were all over the place. The T/C would shoot about a 8" 3 shot group at 75yds is about the best I have gotten out of it. The charge powder I used was, 60 thru 90grs of fffg goex.
All of my other rifles are 1:48 twist and all but one have 28" barrels. Not sure of the grove depths tho. The two I would like to work up RB loads for are flinters. One is a T/C Hawken 45cal and I've used both .020 patch or .018 pillow ticking and a .440 dia ball. The other is a Lyman Trade rifle in 50cal and I also used .020 patch or .018 pillow ticking and a .490 dia ball. The Lyman has never shot a group worth a flip. I often wandered if it may require a .495 ball. It also had a sharp rifling when I got it. It would cut both shooting and cleaning patches. I took a ball, patch , and valve grinding compound and finally honed it enough to clear that up. Actually the first shot off a clean bore would be the most accurate. After that they were all over the place. The T/C would shoot about a 8" 3 shot group at 75yds is about the best I have gotten out of it. The charge powder I used was, 60 thru 90grs of fffg goex.
A while back now but my CVA shot over 200 times before it had worn the barrel in so it would group.
It went from 12" @100yds to a consistant 3" group for three shots @100yds (I was younger then!).
I have heard of folks spending hours lapping a ball barrel!
Brits.
It went from 12" @100yds to a consistant 3" group for three shots @100yds (I was younger then!).
I have heard of folks spending hours lapping a ball barrel!
Brits.
paulvallandigham
Passed On
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Messages
- 17,537
- Reaction score
- 94
I suggest you change to 2Fg powder, instead, and go to the .495 Ball for the Lyman. Lyman is known for the deep rifling grooves, so read your spent patches, to see if you aren't suffering torn patches( burrs, and sharp edges) or burned patches, and blow-by( too thin a patch material for the depth of the grooves.
65 grains FFFg is a fairly stout load in a .45. My brother shoots that load in his chunk gun with a 39 inch barrel! I would try the .445 ball and back those charges back. Again, the spent patches tell you everything you need to know about what is going on inside the barrel. T/C has cut different depths of grooves in those barrels over the year. However, the T/C rifle is known for its accuracy. You should be able to do better than 3" at 75 yards with the gun.
As to ball size in the .45, my brother spent a year working with his gun and .440" balls. He just was not getting the match grade accuracy he wanted, altho the groups were plenty for deer hunting. So, he tried a .454" ball, then a .451" ball, then a .454" ball, and finally, a .457" ball and his .015" patching. He got smaller and smaller groups the larger the ball diameter he used. Remember that bore diameter is Land to Land diameter. The grooves increase the diameter of the " Hole" in the barrel. My brother measures his groove depth and calculated that the "GROOVE DIAMETER" for the gun is closer to .460".
Yes, he had to use a mallet on his short starter to seat those .457" balls with the lubed patch into the bore, but once the combination of PRB went into the barrel, he was able to run them down onto the powder easily. He uses a series of lighter taps to get the ball "seated" in the barrel, rather than one big " WHACK!" The lighter "taps" save the ball from deforming at the "nose", or front of the ball. He also lapped the concave cup on the nose of his short starter, using one of his lead balls, and lapping compound so that its a PERFECT FIT to the ball. That also helps to keep the nose from being deformed during the loading process.
Its always important to actually KNOW what the Exact dimensions of your bores are- both bore diameter and groove diameter. If you don't have calipers to measure these yourself, take the barrel to any machine shop, or auto repair shop, and ask them to measure the bore and groove diameter for you. I can't remember the last machine shop or auto repair shop I visited where the men and women working there were not gun enthusiasts, who were fascinated to meet someone who shoots MLers. :shocked2: :hmm: :thumbsup: :grin:
65 grains FFFg is a fairly stout load in a .45. My brother shoots that load in his chunk gun with a 39 inch barrel! I would try the .445 ball and back those charges back. Again, the spent patches tell you everything you need to know about what is going on inside the barrel. T/C has cut different depths of grooves in those barrels over the year. However, the T/C rifle is known for its accuracy. You should be able to do better than 3" at 75 yards with the gun.
As to ball size in the .45, my brother spent a year working with his gun and .440" balls. He just was not getting the match grade accuracy he wanted, altho the groups were plenty for deer hunting. So, he tried a .454" ball, then a .451" ball, then a .454" ball, and finally, a .457" ball and his .015" patching. He got smaller and smaller groups the larger the ball diameter he used. Remember that bore diameter is Land to Land diameter. The grooves increase the diameter of the " Hole" in the barrel. My brother measures his groove depth and calculated that the "GROOVE DIAMETER" for the gun is closer to .460".
Yes, he had to use a mallet on his short starter to seat those .457" balls with the lubed patch into the bore, but once the combination of PRB went into the barrel, he was able to run them down onto the powder easily. He uses a series of lighter taps to get the ball "seated" in the barrel, rather than one big " WHACK!" The lighter "taps" save the ball from deforming at the "nose", or front of the ball. He also lapped the concave cup on the nose of his short starter, using one of his lead balls, and lapping compound so that its a PERFECT FIT to the ball. That also helps to keep the nose from being deformed during the loading process.
Its always important to actually KNOW what the Exact dimensions of your bores are- both bore diameter and groove diameter. If you don't have calipers to measure these yourself, take the barrel to any machine shop, or auto repair shop, and ask them to measure the bore and groove diameter for you. I can't remember the last machine shop or auto repair shop I visited where the men and women working there were not gun enthusiasts, who were fascinated to meet someone who shoots MLers. :shocked2: :hmm: :thumbsup: :grin:
Paul,
You mentioned patch blow-by. And I can see where it would give inconsistant pressures causing flyers. I wander if I put (X) amount of cornmeal behind the patch on top of the powder charge. Do you think it would seal the groves enough at ignition to determine wheather I needed to change ball size or not? I'm just trying to think of something I might have on hand that I could try. The .445 or .495 balls are not that common around here. I would have to order either one of those.
You mentioned patch blow-by. And I can see where it would give inconsistant pressures causing flyers. I wander if I put (X) amount of cornmeal behind the patch on top of the powder charge. Do you think it would seal the groves enough at ignition to determine wheather I needed to change ball size or not? I'm just trying to think of something I might have on hand that I could try. The .445 or .495 balls are not that common around here. I would have to order either one of those.
paulvallandigham
Passed On
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Messages
- 17,537
- Reaction score
- 94
Yes. Using fillers is a good way to eliminate possible sources of problems, so you can focus on the patch thickness, and ball diameter vs. bore diameter of your gun.
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2010
- Messages
- 1,808
- Reaction score
- 8
How about one or two lubed leather wads over the powder?
In my enfield I short start a backing patch fisrt, the short starter cups the patch and then the ball and patch follows after :thumbsup:
Brits.
Brits.
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2010
- Messages
- 1,808
- Reaction score
- 8
that has to be bad for the motorcycle.
lol
Sorry, could'nt help it
lol
Sorry, could'nt help it
paulvallandigham
Passed On
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Messages
- 17,537
- Reaction score
- 94
Leather can work, depending on the depth and width of the grooves. :hmm:
Supercracker said:
Not that Enfield :wink:
Brits :thumbsup:
