Eliminating 'Fliers"

[coalkickin]

Hey guys...I have noticed that the first two or three shots seem to always be outside my group. I have attempted to "foul" the barrel by dropping some 4f down the barrel and igniting, but I still get early fliers. After that they really tighten up into one big hole, but that won't help me any with huntin.

 

[sse]

I'd sure like to know how to liminate 'em.

Regards, sse

 

[Slowpoke]

What kind of lube are you useing? If its a grease type: borebutter, tallow, etc it may be that you're putting to much on the patch. This is common when using this type lube. If you want to use this type, make sure that 95% of it is off the patch. The patch should almost feel dry with only a little residue on your fingers, more than this you're just wasting lube. The less you use the tighter your groups will be.

I'm assuming that since your groups are tightening up later that you're casting you balls correctly or using store bought.

SP

 

[Stumpkiller]

I have noticed that the first two or three shots seem to always be outside my group.

Three shots IS a group.

One solution is to shoot bigger groups. :winking:

So, you're saying is that shots #4 on are all striking in one cluster. Are the first three high, low or random? I believe it is most common for the first shot to be low. Describe how you prepare for the first shot and how you lube your patches.

I run a cleaning patch dampened in either Lehigh Valley Lube or my moose milk before the first load. This seems to work in my rifles. Some rifles throw a string as the barrel warms up; about all you can do with this is wait longer between shots or use a strip of paper to find where the stock might be pressing tightly on the barrel, and then pull the barrel and relieve the wood there very jusiciously.

There is also a tendency among shooters to flinch on the first shot, more so when offhand than off a bench. You can beat that with breath control and relaxing techniques. Here is a thread with tips:Stumpy's Offhand Seminar

 

[coalkickin]

The first two or three shots are random....then the group tightens up. I always start by running a patch down the barrel to remove oils, etc. Then I foul the barrel, firing an "blank" load.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Aagrh. Random is hard to diagnose. What are you using for lube, and what are you using in the bore after clean-up for protection?

Try this next time. Run a dry patch, then a lightly lubed patch (damp if liquid lube - squeezed hard before use that is - and just enough to fill the weave but not globs if you are using a grease/wax lube). Do this before you "poof" the FFFg. If you use a petroleum oil for between shooting protection, swab the bore with alcohol before the dry patch starter mentioned above.

 

[Mark Walker]

WHAT IF YOU CLEANED BETWEEN EVERY SHOT? WOULD YOU HAVE A GOOD GROUP THEN? I HUNT WITH A STONE CLEAN BARREL AND CLEAN AFTER EACH SHOT.

MY COMPUTER IS ACTING UP CAN'T GET SMALL LETTERS.

FLINCHER

 

[musketman]

WHAT IF YOU CLEANED BETWEEN EVERY SHOT? WOULD YOU HAVE A GOOD GROUP THEN? I HUNT WITH A STONE CLEAN BARREL AND CLEAN AFTER EACH SHOT.

They you should have a tight three shot group of fliers...

 

[Stumpkiller]

Then you should have a tight three shot group of fliers...

Yup. What he said. Every shot duplicates the first. For hunting, that is actually the way to go. The first shot is what it's all about.

Practice, Practice, Consistancy, Practice. ::

 

[Slowpoke]

Come on Coal.... appease my curiosity. Tell us/me what kinda lube you're using. Water based or Grease.

 

Flincher - if you clean after every shot, how do you load a 'fast' second shot as a finisher.
: That is the reason for finding a lube that doesn't evapourate or freeze and that softens the fouling - for repeated loading wihtout trouble.
:
::::: Coalkicken - I am curious as well- you seem to be reluctant to answer the questions of those who are trying to help you. What lube are you using?
: Two-grouping, as your file seems to be doing, CAN be caused by barrel and breech bedding on rifles with hooked breeches. It sometimes takes a couple or more shots to 'settle' the barrel into place and then they shoot just fine, until cleaned again, then it takes a couple shots to re-settle.
; Try cleaning the barrel spottlessly without removing it from the stock, then re-shoot for group location.

 

[connerm]

I'm thinking about two things...

1. Try a thicker patch for the first two shots. Then, go to your normal (thinner) patch. Thinking that the barrel starts to tighten up as it gets warm.

2. Try shooting another long gun before shooting the bp in question. It might be a recoil management issue.

Try one thing at a time to more easily identify the cause.

 

[coalkickin]

Hey guys...No I am not "reluctant" to answer any questions..I posted the question, then I was off the computer, figured I would check next chance I could. I want help, that is why I asked!! I am using T/C borebutter. I have very little on the patch. Tonight I was all over the place with my shots. I am getting discouraged...I wanted to use the flint for the upcoming firearms season, but I am running out of practice time.

 

[Mark Walker]

Daryl, you are going to laugh at me but I take a little solvent and patches with me. So far I have not used a second shot but I do clean and continue hunting for small stuff. I shoot barn pigeons and varmits around the farm stuff like that.
I'm sure there is a better way, but the system works for me until I can figure out the better way and I hope I do learn a better way. Im here to learn.

Flincher

 

[flaming canvas]

Hey coalkickin,

Next time you go to the range, try spit patching a few shots first and see if it makes any difference.

Sounds like it could be a problem between your ears and those are the hardest ones to solve.

 

[musketman]

Hey guys...I have noticed that the first two or three shots seem to always be outside my group. I have attempted to "foul" the barrel by dropping some 4f down the barrel and igniting,

coalkickin, if you would be so kind as to try and foul the barrel with your main charge powder, be it FFg or FFFg...

Maybe the FFFFg fouling is where the problem lies...

Are you using real black powder as a main charge?

Just wondering because flintlocks don't do well with Pyrodex or 777 down the tube, they like the real stuff...

Synthetic powders are harder to light and if you are using them for a main charge, this is where your wide patterns are originating from, the barrel will move before it ignites the higher flash-point powder...

 

[coalkickin]

Musketman,
Using Goex FFFg...not Pyrodex (although I made that mistake before) I'll try fouling with FFFg, instead of 4f. See if that helps.. Thank You

 

Hey coalkickin,

Next time you go to the range, try spit patching a few shots first and see if it makes any difference.

Coalkickin,.... Thet's what I'd reccomend also!!

In fact I'd personaly try it with NO foul'n shot, and no lube 'cept "spit", and see what kind'a 5-shot group I'd git!!

YMHS
rollingb

 

[Rat]

Try NOT "fouling", loading into a clean dry barrl, and then dry-patch your barrel.

The fouling from just buring powder in your barrel would be different than the powder burning under pressure of a load I would guess...maybe not.

I seem to be seeing a pattern, or a regular repeat of people having these problems, who are all using Bore-Butter.

I may be wrong...just seems like that.

I always hunt with clean guns, don't snap caps or flash the pan. I do carefully dry all critical parts of the gun with clean, dry patches, bore, breech, pan and frizzen, and on a cap gun take the nipple out, dry it, dry the flash channel, etc...and they shoot to POA first shot. I've always been highly "dubious" of fouling a rifle before shooting it. Seems like pre-fouling a rifle also would make it more prone to attracting moisture and maybe getting mis-fires.

I've used a variety of patch lubes...concoctions of bacon grease, olive oil and bee's wax, Hoppe's #9+, Wonder Lube 1000, and other stuff.

Again, first shot from a cold clean barrel will be right in the kill zone.

Are your shots going into a kill-zone sized area, for the maximum range you hunt, and appropriate size for the animal? Or are you getting too hung up on group size?

Put up two paper plates at your self imposed maximum range, and shoot one shot at one from a cold clean barrel, and a follow up shot at the other one. Hit the plates both times? If so you are ready to hunt. You won't be shooting for group on the side of a deer or elk.

Just some thoughts.

Rat

 

[coalkickin]

Rat...when they fly...they fly they are usually like a foot off the group. I am heading out today again to practice different things. Thanks all