Eliminating 'Fliers"

[Huntinfool]

The best way I've found of eliminating my fliers is to get another shooter! :crackup: :crackup: :crackup:

YMH&OS,
Chuck

 

Coalkicken- if you're shooting small game, where shots come every few to maybe 4/5 minutes apart, I'd merely use spit for lube & limit my days shooting to a couple or three hours before a good cleaning and oiling.
: If going for an entire day, or with extended periods of time between shots, I'd use a grease of oil lube of some sort. So far, I haven't had a chance to try Stumpy's moose snot, but have 1/2 lb. mixed up. I really like this stuff, as it doesn't freeze or get hard like Bore Butter does. Another you could try, is straight Castor Oil. It might be all you need for light loads.
: Try putting a good amount of Bore Butter on the patch, pushing it through the cloth with your fingers, or GENTLY melting it and dipping the patches into it for absorbtion. TOO much heat will destroy the lube - hense "GENTLY". If you use pre-cuts, use a needle and thread, tie a knot in the end, and run the needle through a stack of patches - then dip in the lube, let drip drain and maybe press them just a bit. If you cannot shoot many shots between having to clean, you're not using enough lube. You have to use enough to soften the fouling.
: I have found many greases to cause the first shot to be "off", yet, "baby oil" worked for 1/2 dozen shots in a row & yet hit centre with all.
: I have some Lehigh ordered and will of course, try it after it arrives.

 

[BambiSlayer]

Coalkickin; I didnt see in the post or maybe I missed it. ( Do you mold your own balls or buy premade ones?) I had a problem with grouping and fliers till I realized I was heating my lead pot TOO Hot. first 10 balls where ok but after that they would grow. The variances when I used those was enough to open my group and throw fliers {6"-12")off group. I cooled my pouring temp down now they're very consistant. I also went to using .024 duct cloth for patching and moosemilk lube. Now it gives that ragged hole group at 50yds. Maybe you can figure yours out it just takes time and experimentation. :results: :thumbsup:

 

[flintkeeper]

Good evening!

I've been following this conversation. Seems like some of the people here don't like Bore Butter.

My question is: Is there anybody in this forum has problems with it, and what the problems are? (I am trying to figure out whether these problems were a fluke or a consistent thing)

What are the optimal (in your opinion) lubes for a patch?

Thanks!
Flintfan

 

[Ohio Joe]

Hey guys...I have noticed that the first two or three shots seem to always be outside my group.

After reading the replies I doubt that your lube, powder, ball diameter is the problem at all. I believe you start to get grouping after three shots because you have become familiar with the "Flintlock Ignition Action" at this point.

You must not let yourself become obsessed with the working action of the lock. Keep your eye aligned through the sight picture and hold that sight picture for a few seconds after you have fired. Follow through!

You may be surprised just how tight your group will become when you follow through. Always cheek the rifle in the same way, do not cant the barrel, see through the sights, and follow through... :thumbsup: (Easier said then done if your not use to a flintlock)... eace:

 

[BambiSlayer]

Bore butter is great on Maxi's and for mini bullets. But using it as a patch on a RB it gums the bore of all rifles I have ever tried it in. PRB is pushed down the bore tight. Where Maxi's/Mini's are forced tite against the with the ignition of the powder. The slight gum build up of bore butter gets blown out the barrel leaving a slight skim of lube used for the next charge. The Patch isnt hard enough to sweep the bore clean(result more buildup with each shot) till its to fouled to load. :m2c:

 

[Stumpkiller]

What are the optimal (in your opinion) lubes for a patch?

Hmmm. :hmm: Never gave it much thought.

Liquid lube, store bought: Lehigh Valley Lube.

Liquid lube, homemade: My castor oil moose milk

Grease/wax lube, store bought: Nature Lube 1000 Plus (BB)

Grease/wax lube, homemade: My castor oil Moose Snot

I have lately been getting very good results with twice soaked strips of cotton tick and drying between & after dips in the liquid moose milk. These are easy to handle and non-messy, but shoot very well (I spit wipe between shots).

I like the Natural Lube/Bore Butter very well. It is a convenient multi-shot without wiping between lube.

 

[brushbuster]

The best way I've found of eliminating my fliers is to get another shooter! :crackup: :crackup: :crackup:

YMH&OS,
Chuck

do you know anybody ?:crackup: :crackup:
seriously
i still use bore butter in my t/c.50 i like it and it works very well.
i have been exprementing with stumpkillers moose snot and moose milk and havin very good results .i have found out ,however ,that when you soak your strips in the melted snot mix it is best to take the back side of an old butter knife and scrape the excess off the strips until you cant get any more off,because this mix is so slick you can cause fliers from over lubeing :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[leadball]

I was getting fliers at one time also. I was told too much oil left in the barrel and with the greased patch would cause that with the first shot. after the first shot it(excess oil) then was burnt out so my shots after that were better. I was also told about fouling the barrel first. I still notice that if i shoot the first round with a clean barrel, my first shot is a feww inches off from my others. As far as sitting all day with a fouled barrel, I use one of those gun condoms and clean it at the end of the day. seems to work.

 

[roundball]

Natural Lube 1000 is the only thing I put down the bores of my muzzleloaders and so far (15 years) I haven't had this flier situation you're referring to.

Following TC's recommendations, and from my personal experiences with it, there are a couple things that I do religiously and assume it's why it works so well for me:

1) After every shooting session, I ensure the bore is cleaned completely...100%...without question...to the bare, raw metal, with steaming hot soapy water (mainly to heat up the barrel) and I include a couple dozen strokes with a good bore brush so there is absolutely no buildup;
Patches alone HAVE NEVER gotten my bores 100% clean...the notion that a 'white patch = clean" has never worked for me. When I think I have a bore clean with patches, I run a tight brush up and down, and am amazed at the new stuff that comes out...only after a good brushing then clean patches do I assume a bore is really 100% clean.
(I also use a cleaning rod with a .30cal brush and a patch to reach all the way down into the tapered cone of the patent breeches my rifles have to ensure they stay cleaned out.)

2) I hot water rinse it, then immediately dry patch it to prevent 'flash rust', then allow the residual heat in the barrel to get it 100% bone dry for a few minutes.

3) Then I literally use popsicle sticks to reach in and pack the grooves with NL1000 as far as I can reach, plaster NL1000 heavily on cleaning/lubing patches, run them down bore (including the patent breech) and repeat this a couple times until I'm convinced every square inch of the bore is well covered, insulated from any air contact.

4) Next time before I shoot, I dry patch excess lube out of the bore and then shoot as much as I want without having to wipe between shots, using shooting patches lubed with NL1000, shots are consistent, no fliers, etc.

Can't take credit for the procedure in general as TC recommends it, but I probably implement it to a greater extreme than their writeup suggests...however, it works so perfectly for me, I'm afraid to experiment with anything else or make any changes to the regimen...shooting 40 shoots at the range on a Saturday morning without wiping between shots is where it's at for me.

I've become a strong believer in what somebody once said is the key to a perfect, accurate, consistent muzzleloader bore and that is they must be...

100% cleaned
100% dried
100% lubed

Nothing less than 100% every time.

:m2c:

 

[Ohio Joe]

Sound advise, Roundball! :thumbsup:

Couple your post with the fact that most folks are too quick to jump to the conclusion that there is nothing wrong with their shooting mechanics so therefore the problem must lay within the load chain and maintenance of their muzzleloader. They rule out the first in favor of the second possibility.

I've used the T/C Bore Butter and have even cut the solution with Crisco Shortening and it has still worked great for as long as I can remember. I bet I've used it close to twenty years at least? At the very least I've used it since it first came out and came to my attention.

I do slip back to the spit patch at times, usually during Rendezvous...

 

[ryoung14]

I've used T/C Bore Butter heavily since getting into muzzleloading 6 years ago. My cleaning regimen resembles that of Roundball, except I don't pack the bore with Bore Butter when it's hot. I just run a couple of heavily lubed patches down the bore to coat it. I have been plagued with the 1st shot flier effect, however, whether shooting conicals, RB or sabots.

Recently I found that if I clean the lube out with a mixture of alcohol and windshield washer fluid (thanx cayugad) and then thoroughly dry patch the bore before firing, the first shot went to point of aim....this with conicals. Haven't tested this yet with RB or sabots.

When not using Bore Butter, I use Ox-Yoke's Wonder Lube 1000. Anyone know if they are the same? They smell, feel, look and perform identically.
Bob

 

[roundball]

You've got it, they're the same...Oxyoke makes it and TC just markets theirs under the name Natural Lube 1000. Same with patches...TC's prelubed pillow ticking patches have been outstandinbg for me, but they don't have a "patch manufacturing division"...all that kind of stuff is outsourced / contracted to the other industry leaders in their respective fields.

In addition, FWIW, since TC's huge plant fire back in the early 90's, we all might be surprised to know the list of vendors who are on contract making components for TC...ie: since that fire, their whole 'resin impregnated' ramrod manufacturing line was never replaced...their whole stock wood operation has been outsourced to some outfit in Oklahoma or Missouri...can no longer get the high quality / figured wood that was the norm on TC Hawkens & Renegades 15 years ago.

 

[makanaut]

Excellent description of cleaning process. Think Ill give this method a try and attempt to get rid of that first shot that is always off. I like the idea of not having to clean between shots as well. I also average 50rnds a session at the range. Thanks Roundball.

 

[roundball]

And it's particularly easy with rifles having a hooked breech. Mine do, and I use a huge pail that easily holds 5 gallons of steaming hot water with a shot of dish washing detergent mixed in.

I sit the barrel breech end down for about 10 minutes until it's almost too hot to handle, then pump flush with patches, then with a brush, then with patches, etc, until the patches come out truly clean. (Have a small bucket on the side with a few inches of plain clean hot water for a final rinse.)

Depending on what all has been in that barrel, and for how long, you may spend 30-60 minutes at this trying to restore the bore to a raw, bare metal state. But once you get it clean, then it's just a few minutes after every shooting.

In an extreme case of compressed buildup of something in a used barrel I bought once, I couldn't get it all out with patches & brushes, so I had to get a bottle of "Shooter's Choice BP cleaning Gel" and work it over with that. (a strong chemical that dissolves stubborn buildup...will also dissolve a bore brush during the night if you don't rinse it off thoroughly !)

 

[Bob J]

Is your wedge pin(s) or hammer loose? Had a group start opening up and found the hammer had play in it. Tightened hammer and group tightened back up.

 

Flintfan - the very best target lube I've ever used is spit. I've yet to find or use a lube that will beat it for accuracy or for clean shooting. By clean shooting, I mean softening the fouling so the next ball can be loaded, every time, without having to swab or clean the bore(between shots). It matters not if you are shooting 10 shots, 20, 50 or 100 in the day's time. With spit as the lube, and with the proper ball/patch combo, you don't have to clean except for at the day's end.
: With low velocity rounds, close shot to shot velocity is important for good accuracy. Large shot to shot variations in relatively low velocity rounds, causes vetical stringing on the target. So - the least amount of variation results in the best grouping, without stringing, ie: round groups.
: Spit used for lube, gives the lowest shot to shot variations of any lube I've tested so far. I've tried Bore Butter, Bear Grease, Bear oil, Marmot oil, Baby oil(commercial), Axle grease, HW30 and of course, spit. ALL of the oils exhibited much more variation in velocities & accuracy and poor cleaning in comparrison, with BP as well as with Pyrodex. Pyrodex is very poor with large variations, even with spit. Pyrodex fouled much less, allowing many shots without cleaning, even when using oils or grease for lube. Accuracy with Pyrodex is harder to find than BP.
; Extreme accuracy is harder to get with any lube other than spit.
: For hunting, any non-freezing lube that will allow several shots without having to swab the bore is just fine. The other requirement is that the lube also shoots well with consistant accuracy 1st shot through last. I haven't tried Stumpy's "Moose Snot" yet, but expect to use it or Lehigh Valley for hunting from now on. Which ever shoots the best and allows shooting without having to clean or swab. A major requirement of clean shooting is a tight ball/patch combination. A .010" under ball with .020" patch works in most rifles as well as a .005" under ball and .015 to .018 patch.