Elk hunting

[txhunter58]

Good points all stumpkiller. I can find nothing in your beliefs to really disagree with. Especially about it being a less crowded sport if we truly went primative. It won't bother me at all if Colorado does happen to go really primative. I could live with it. For the record, when I hunt in Texas with my muzzy (muzzloading rife! sorry) I shoot a patched round ball out of my renegade during rifle season for whitetails. Self imposed max distance: 50 yards. I have never used a scope on a muzzleloader.

Maybe I am differnt than most. I enjoy mental sparring becasuse it either strengthens my belief and why I believe what I do, or from time to time, I am convinced that the other side is really what I do/should believe. That has happened more than once.

All of you guys are welcome at my campfire anytime!

 

[musketman]

My favorite primitive weapon...

Nothing like throwing 800 pounds of musket balls at an elk in one shot...
(thats 10,400 .735 round balls) :haha: :haha: :haha:

 

[vanstg]

Back to my original question...

Unfortunately I don't have a large caliber rifle to go after elk with PRB. With my .50 cal sidelock (1:48 twist), is the 370gr Maxiball a good conical for elk? Or should I go for something heavier? Should I use hollow points (like the T/C Maxi-hunter)? Or stick with solid points?

Assuming the 370gr Maxiball is an adequate projectile for elk, is 70gr of FFg a good powder charge, or too little? I've shot maxiballs in my rifle, and accuracy was good with 70gr. Range will not exceed 100 yards. I only shoot open sights, and 100 yards is my self-imposed limit.


Thanks again,
Vanstg

 

[musketman]

I once shot a .50 caliber maxiball using 100 grains of FFg and lubed with wonderlube, it shot through an old rail road tie at 25 yards out of a T/C Hawken...

Lots of power (and splinters too), assuming your gun can handle it, this should get the elk's attention real quick...

 

[Huntinfool]

Darkhorse, Darkhorse, Darkhorse. You said,

I disagree with that statement. I think your Omega or any other inline should be inherently more accurate than a flintlock and to a lesser degree a percussion.

Boy, did you open a can of worms with that statement INHERENTLY MORE ACCURATE THAN A FLINTLOCK!! :bull:

You are comparing apples to oranges when you are talking about benchrest rifles compared to slow lock time. I mean if I put my flintlock on a bench rest lock time is not near as relevant. It prints where the sights are when it goes bang it's up to the individual to hold it there. We are talking about accuracy of the piece not our ability.

I'm saying if you do your part they are plenty accurate. I fired five shots into a 1" ragged hole from the bench with my .50 longrifle flinter at 50 yards. Now center to center that's one half inch the same size as the caliber. How much accuracy is enough. What you said maybe true for you, but not for someone who's mastered flintlocks. His Omega may be inherently more accurate in his hands than a flintlock and to a lesser degree a percussion because of his ability only!

We had a little impromptu shooting match at a public hunting area one day last year during a lunch break. There were 3 inlines all firing bullets and pellets with 209 primers, 1 percussion RB rifle and 2 longrifle flinters. To make a long story short Bob Walden and I outshot them all with flintlocks and all original type equipment. The target a soda can at 50 yards the flinters were the only ones to connect and 2 of the inlines had scopes. But now we didn't shoot from no stinking benchrest we shot offhand of course. :: By the way we were all friends and hunting partners I don't hold it again em cuz they shoot modern rifles.

I'll put my longrifle up against any inline with or without a scope at offhand shooting. I know that my rifle can outshoot me anyday of the week!

Keep em dry all you traditional guys,
Chuck Goodall

 

[txhunter58]

Vanstg: I have heard that the 370 maxiball is great elk medicine. What are your other options? My 1:48 54 caliber percussion rifle likes powerbelts too. I have killed 2 elk with the 425 gr powerbelts in this rifle. Neither went more than 5 yards. They give me about a 4" 100 yard group. Either the 348 gr or 405 gr powerbelt will also do the job. I have always liked to be near the 100 gr blackpowder range with powder when elk hunting. You get enough power and a good trajectory. I can hold on dead on out to 100 yards without thinking about it. I am currently shooting 90 gr of 777 which is the equivalent to about 105 gr blackpowder/pyrodex. I shoot 110 gr pyrodex with my 54 caliber. I have also heard buffalo bullets (380 gr) and Colorado Conicals from Precision bullets are good as well.

Bottom line is that every rifle is different and yours may not shoot the same bullet/powder combo with the same accuracy even if it is the same make of gun. I was trying powerbelts with my 50 caliber and it was throwing 3 inch groups at 25 yards until I dropped to 90 grains 777. When I tried 90, they were touching at 25 yards and about a 3" group at 100.

Huntinfool: I knew there was someone out there that could outshoot me with a flinter! I would like to see that!

 

[txhunter58]

By the way, if you ever try to compare bullets/loads between muzzleloaders on paper, you will be disappointed if you use ft/lbs. I like the Taylor index. No one mathmatical formula is the be-al for "knock down power" but I like how this formula works for big, slow bullets.


http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/July02.htm

 

[tg]

"tg: and you other in-liners. WARNING"

Huh!......the only thing inline with any of the 30 some ML guns I have owned is the sights, I have never really considered them a valid part of the ML sport, they are somehwere in between ML guns and modern centerfires, and when they come up as subject matter it is usually not a positive thing unless the forum is specific for them.

 

[roundball]

"tg: and you other in-liners. WARNING"

TG, have you been holdin' out on us...have you slipped over to the dark side? ::

 

[Stumpkiller]

LOL! One thing tg is not is an inline aficionado.

He is the Allan Pinkerton of Period Correctness in firearms.

"He Never Sleeps"

 

[sse]

So far so good. This thread had the makins'of a nasty conflagration. First you have the conservative - use enough lead and powder guys, versus the small bore place the shot and it will still be dead guys (dead is dead) on the revered "elk", then you got the - in-line versus the primitive guys, the the latter believing the in-lines should be hunting with the centerfire. Careful it doesn't get too nasty!! ::

Behave, sse

 

[Huntinfool]

Ain't nobody getting nasty YET! LOL! I just can't stand by and let someone make the same mistake I did about flintlocks.

I wrote an article once and said that the percussion cap was more reliable than flintlocks. Why because I'd heard all of the stories and myths floating around about flintlocks sometimes promoted by the very people using them.

It's been my experience the reverse is true I've had cap guns go ptdud but never my flintlock while hunting. Lost a nice 8 point buck due to damp cap once, it wasn't raining the cap just drew moisture. Sold that Mod. 700 ML real quick like! With a flintlock it's easy to check and see if the prime is dry or not.

I maligned the flintlock out of ignorance just as I assumed Darkhorse did when he said,

I think your Omega or any other inline should be inherently more accurate than a flintlock and to a lesser degree a percussion.

To make a blanket statement like that without having a lot of experience shooting a good flintlock is wrong. Remember he didn't say more reliable he said more accurate. I have nothing against inlines at all or any other modern weapon.

I'll be the first to tell ya that united we stand and divided we fall. It's the goal of anti-hunters to divide and conquer.

Oh and txhunter58 I have no idea if I can outshoot you or not. My statement was meant to convey that I wouldn't be afraid to try. That's how much confidence I have in my rifle it'll drive tacks. I'm not bad with it either. I won my primitive clubs annual shooting contest and was awarded a pipe tomahawk engraved, "Kanawha Rangers Rifle Champion 2004." But I only had to beat out 9 or 10 guys and get the most wins in our 12 monthly woods walk shoots.

Two of the guys I beat are about the best in our whole ML club of about 40 guys. One shoots a cap gun while the other is my mentor and always shoots flint. I usally don't compete in their monthly paper shoots I just compete in the primitive shoots.

My first couple months I thought I'd never get used to my flintlock. I not only lost the 1st 2 woods walk shoots with it I came in dead last! But once I got the hang of it (no pun intended) oh boy!

Stumpy what kind of rifle you got that fzz bangs and don't go boom but 9 out of 10 times! LOL!

Long Live Hunting,

Chuck Goodall
The Original Huntin' Fool
&
Kanawha Ranger Scribe

 

[tg]

Ahhhhhh... the farce nearby I feel,load from the front does this gun, but a ML it may not be, old be one new the other,
only open eyes need you for this to see.

 

[Darkhorse]

Actually, there is a lot of experience shooting both percussion and flintlocks in my background. Along with a great deal of 3 position centerfire match shooting and a deal of benchrest to boot.
I have a shed with boxes full of trophys and Blackington medals won before a lot of readers ever shot their first muzzleloader. Including a few won in the Southeastern Regional NMLRA match.
So I do know a thing or two about flintlocks. And with that experience and knowlege I stand by my statements made previously.
Even off a solid bench with a .222 and 24X scope, such things as "wind", "heartrate" and numerous other things presses the need for fast lock time. A flintlock still has comparable slow locktime even when fully bagged. I mean you don't weld your gun to the bench and then pull the trigger do you? You do acutually hold it in your hands or touching your shoulder at some point?
Climb off your soapbox and reread my post. You should probabaly read it about a dozen times. Then read yours a few times. You are writing things into I did not say.
I don't see how I opened a can of worms. The question was asked if anybody disagreed, I did, and said why.
What I said and am saying is physically true. It was one of the reasons the wheelocks fell from favor. And one of the reasons the percussion replaced the flinter and on and on....and this will always be true.
I have seen groups shot with flinters off a bench that were truly impressive, but way less impressive than .22 LR prone groups I've seen shot at 100 yards with peep sights.
It doesn't bother me that I am right and you are upset by it. It doesn't bother me that my flinters do have a slower lock time even with tuned locks and chambers liners. Money is not an issue to me, I could, and have hunted with most any gun I choose to, but I choose to hunt with a flintlock. And knowing when to accept and recognise reality is one of the reasons I have been successful, both on paper and on game.
I think the original question was about an inline action being more accurate than a flintlock. Not about barrels or patches or lubes or anything else, just actions. OK, if you weld two guns solid to a steel bench and they were equal to begin with then they may shoot the same. But I don't weld my guns I hold them and when a human holds a gun then the inline should be more accurate.

 

[SquirrelsaurusR]

...my flinters do have a slower lock time even with tuned locks and chambers liners.

What's a chamber liner?

 

[txhunter58]

vanstg: Doesn't seem like you are having much luck getting answers to your question does it. Seems to me that most of these guys shoot something bigger than 50 caliber. You may have to go to the "darkside" (the inline forum) to find some guys that will help you much with a 50 caliber question. Sorry I got this thread so off track.

 

[Richard Allen]

I read forums as often as I can enjoy the information and and opinions. I seldon post comments because I can't say what I want to in just a few lines. This string has set me off and I'm climbing on my soapbox. If you want my opinions just read on and if you don't now's the time for you to move on.

Unfortunately vanstg didn't get an answer to his question, and I don't have an answer for him either since I've never even seen an elk much less had the opportunity to hunt them.

I also don't have any experience with in-lines, so I don't chime in there either. That doesn't mean I think the use of in-lines should be allowed during Primitive Weapons Seasons because I don't. Stainless steel, plastic, laminated stocks, bullets with plastic parts, and smokeless powder definitely ain't primitive. I can even go along with folks using imitation blackpowders considering the real stuff ain't available just anywhere.

I don't look down on the people that shoot in-lines because I think the ones that enjoy shooting year round and have in-lines will eventually convert to conventional muzzle loaders. The ones that paid $89.95 for their "Complete Blackpowder Hunting Package" only so that they could hunt during the Primitive weapons Seasons are usually the same ones that buy their rifles and bullets on sale at Wally-World, have their El-cheapo scopes mounted by the same clerk that can't even say Goex, and haven't put more than forty rounds through any of their hunting fire arms since the've owned them.

I agreee with Darkhorse, in-lines should be more accurate than conventional muzzleloaders due to their design, but usually the conventional rifle shooter shoots his "old-fashion" muzzleloader with more precision that the in-liners because he has spent a lot of time developing his loads and skills. Shooting patched round balls (prb)and real black powder is less expensive than shooting blackpowder substitutes, jacketed bullets and 209 primers. Also, it is less expensive to clean and maintain a prb gun than those designed to shoot powerbelts, sabots, and maxis, minis and so forth. The bottom line is, most people that shoot conventional prb guns shoot them better than most in-line shooters because shooting and cleaning the pbr guns is less expensive and therefore more affordable.

I haven't won near as many trophies or matches as Darkhorse or many others on this list but can shoot one hole groups at one hundred yards regularly with my centerfire benchrest rifle, and my old Springfield 1903-A3 with its two groove barrel will keep three touching at one hundred yards if I do my part. I've developed my loads and spent the time at the bench in order to get that type accuracy from my centerfire rifles and the ones that wouldn't shoot well for me live with someone else now. My wife and I have a few State Terrirorial medals we've won, mine were won with the first fifle I built - a percussion kit from TOW. I'm still trying to learn how to shoot the Chambers Lancaster flintlock I built a couple of years ago. For me, there's a bunch of difference between shooting a percussion and a flinter accurately. But that's what keeps this sport interesting to me.

Accuracy is in the rifle and its loads, precision is in the person holding that rifle and his ability.

I'm stepping down from that soapbox now, who wants it next?

Richard/Ga.

 

[Huntinfool]

Thanks Richard you said what I wanted to in one sentence:

Accuracy is in the rifle and its loads, precision is in the person holding that rifle and his ability.

And I'm sorry Darkhorse if you took what I said personally. In my next post I said I assumed you spoke out of ignorance as I have in the past.

But I still stick with what I said in the spirit of what Richard/Ga said and in deference to the statement you made.

I think your Omega or any other inline should be inherently more accurate than a flintlock and to a lesser degree a percussion.

I say it may be more accurate in his hands than a flintlock but as Richard said, Accuracy is in the rifle and its loads, precision is in the person holding that rifle and his ability.

I'll agree that inlines should be more accurate in the hands of the average shooter but then most average shooters are happy if they hit a paper plate at 40 or 50 yards. It's plain to see that most on here are not average.

I bury my bloody hachet! ::

United We Stand
Divided We Fall

Chuck Goodall ::
"The Original Huntin' Fool"
&
Kanawha Ranger Scribe

 

[Darkhorse]

Vanstag,
I think 77 grains behind the maxiball is too light a charge for elk. I would get my hands on a TC manual and try both the heaviest and second heaviest charge. I would also give 3Fg a chance, reduce your load by 20% and it should still be faster than 2F. I personally like all the velocity I can wring out of a load when hunting for Elk.
I have not yet determined whether I will be shooting PRB's or perhaps a bullet designed for a slow twist from Precision Bullet. Testing both will tell me.
As far as the different rifles the only answer is to shoot them both with hunting charges and go with what feels best. Remember, Elk lungs are a big target with large lungs and no points are given for cloverleaf groups. As long as the accuracy is adequate that is what counts.

Squirrel,
A chambers vent liner is made my Jim Chambers, the same man who builds, among others, the fine Siler locks. This liner is designed to give faster, more dependable ignition. They do work real good.

 

[Deerstalker]

Having already said my peace, as well as having heard many others do the same, if we go back to the original question asked we will find that it was asked what caliber rifle does it take to get the job done on elk. I've never hunted elk before, so I can't offer any advise. Maybe someone else more qualified could answer this fellas question, and all us hardcore guys can rest easy in bed!
Bryan :bull: