Elk load dilemma

[brewer12345]

Another silly question about appropriate loads for big game.

I drew a cow elk muzzleloader tag for this fall. I have been practicing with my .54 TC Grey Hawk and working up loads based on PRB and the 380 grain Lee REAL, all with various charges of Black MZ substitute and using over powder wads. The REAL shoots well at 50 yards with 100 grains of powder, but by 100 yards is falling like a stone. By 100 yards the REAL is a foot or more below the point of aim (which it is right on at 50). I was fooling around with PRB loads today and found that with 120 grains it it a couple inches high at 50 yards and a couple inches low and 6 to the left at 100, but it groups reasonably well at 100. While I would rather use a conical on an animal as large as a cow elk, does the better performance at longer range mean I should choose the PRB? The area we will hunt could well yield 75+ yard shots. Is it unwise to be trying that far a shot on a cow with a PRB as far as killing power goes? If I pick the REAL, my experience at the range makes me believe that a 65 to 75 yard shot is the longest I would want to try.

 

[BrownBear]

If you want a better look at the trajectory potential of the REAL, try sighting it in at 75 yards. It will be a similar couple of inches high at 50, and probably no more than 6 or 7 low at 100.

 

[Frontier's]

90gr 3fg, 250gr real, dead on at 50 ='s 6" low at 100 yards in my rifle.

 

[dsayer]

If you want a better look at the trajectory potential of the REAL, try sighting it in at 75 yards. It will be a similar couple of inches high at 50, and probably no more than 6 or 7 low at 100.

This. Exactly this.

 

[dsayer]

90gr 3fg, 250gr real, dead on at 50 ='s 6" low at 100 yards in my rifle.

Maybe so but he's slinging a REAL that's ~1.5x heavier. His PRB is probably 230ish grains or about the same weight as your REAL.

 

[Frontier's]

yes and the black mz is a much slower shooting powder than pyrodex or even black powder.

 

[Sparkitoff]

On a cow elk out to 100-yards I don't think you're getting any advantage using a conical - particularly if your groups are bigger than the PRB loads and/or the trajectory is showing much greater drop at longer ranges. There are a bunch of us here including me that take elk and elk-sized critter every year with a .54 PRB over 80 grains of powder. Some use 90, 100 etc. but usually not for velocity but rather because it produces better groups. I'd rather have accuracy and less worry about elevation than a heavier projectile. The fact that the PRB's were going a bit left sounds like the effect of wind or canting. If they are true at 50-yards there's no reason they'd be way off at 100.

 

[brewer12345]

Sparkitoff, what kind of range are you taking them at?

The leftward drift could have been wind, a bit of canting, or me. I wish I had better vision, but it apparently isn't in the cards no matter what the eye doctor does. Colorado's rules preclude a scope, not that I would be real interested with a muzzleloader anyway.

I need to try pushing the charge on the REAL up to 120 (in increments) to see if I can get it to shoot a bit flatter. The best of both worlds would be a flatter trajectory with the heavier bullet. And yes, my REAL is a lot heavier than Frontier's. That and the somewhat less energetic powder probably contribute to the rainbow effect.

 

[Frontier's]

doenst the greyhawk have an adjustable rear sight? Find which projectile/powder charge shoots the best and then just adjust the sights for it to be dead on at 100 yards.

 

[brewer12345]

doenst the greyhawk have an adjustable rear sight? Find which projectile/powder charge shoots the best and then just adjust the sights for it to be dead on at 100 yards.

Yeah, heading there. The flattest trajectory I can manage gives me the least amount of agita about adjusting my point of aim if the cow steps out of the trees 25 yards away.

The underlying question is probably: is it foolhardy to try to take a cow at 100 yards with a PRB (assuming making the shot does not present problems)?

 

[Frontier's]

I took one cow at 140 yards with 80gr pyrodex rs and a 530 round ball. One shot ,double lung, 60 yard recovery. The rest have been with my 50cals or the other rifle kinds.

 

[hanshi]

A .54 prb will kill an elk at any reasonable range. I'd limit (only me) to 100 yards max. I say go with the most accurate load and don't look back.

 

[brewer12345]

A .54 prb will kill an elk at any reasonable range. I'd limit (only me) to 100 yards max. I say go with the most accurate load and don't look back.

I was edging in that direction. For me personally, 100 yards is the max I would imagine trying simply due to eyesight and the risk of wind drift with typical muzzleloader projectiles. My inclination is to try to get a good deal closer in any case.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

[A .54 prb will kill an elk at any reasonable range. I'd limit (only me) to 100 yards max. I say go with the most accurate load and don't look back.]

I was edging in that direction.

OK the above is good, BUT back up the bread-truck a minute...

That Grey Hawk is a short barrel.., 24". So the first thing you want to do is to switch to Black Powder. That substitute is slow. MZ is not doing you any favors with that short barrel.

Next, I want you to try 90 grains of 3Fg, and no more. Get a faster burn from that short barrel. Sight that rifle in at 75 yards, then see how high it hits at 50 and how low at 100... with patched round ball. The lighter ball will give you faster flight time and thus, less drop. There's plenty of lead in that sphere for an elk.

Finally, IF you don't get good results..., then consider using a lead alloy round ball and 90 grains of powder. The lead alloy will allow the ball to penetrate deeper, and the hole is big enough as it is. You will have to come up with a thinner patch for the ball as it will be a fraction larger than pure lead, and it will be a fraction lighter so again drop a tiny bit less. (You may have to load a wad between the patched ball and powder using the alloy ball).

Give THAT a try. 'Cause I think with that short barrel and 120 grains you're burning a lot of the MZ in front of your muzzle...

LD

 

[longcruise]

I wouldn't mess with the alloy. Not necessary. It's the nature of a pure lead ball to deform at closer range and still provide adequate penetration and to deform less at longer range and therefore still provide adequate penetration.

Without changing sight settings a round ball and a conical shot at distance will always show a difference in horizontal impact point so that may explain what you are observing.

I think you are way overthinking this. I and people I hunt with have found that a .54 RB over 80 grains of 2f or 3f of real bp will do fine on elk out to 100 and probably further if you are up to the shot.

Only two months away!!!

 

[brewer12345]

OK the above is good, BUT back up the bread-truck a minute...

That Grey Hawk is a short barrel.., 24". So the first thing you want to do is to switch to Black Powder. That substitute is slow. MZ is not doing you any favors with that short barrel.

Next, I want you to try 90 grains of 3Fg, and no more. Get a faster burn from that short barrel. Sight that rifle in at 75 yards, then see how high it hits at 50 and how low at 100... with patched round ball. The lighter ball will give you faster flight time and thus, less drop. There's plenty of lead in that sphere for an elk.

Finally, IF you don't get good results..., then consider using a lead alloy round ball and 90 grains of powder. The lead alloy will allow the ball to penetrate deeper, and the hole is big enough as it is. You will have to come up with a thinner patch for the ball as it will be a fraction larger than pure lead, and it will be a fraction lighter so again drop a tiny bit less. (You may have to load a wad between the patched ball and powder using the alloy ball).

Give THAT a try. 'Cause I think with that short barrel and 120 grains you're burning a lot of the MZ in front of your muzzle...

LD

An interesting thought. Its funny, but coming from smokeless cartridge rifles to muzzleloaders I tend to think of 24 inches as a pretty long rifle barrel. I can't easily get my hands on real black locally, so all I have easy access to is various types of substitutes and a pound of Olde E FFG that I tacked onto my last powder and primer mail order. I don't suppose it is worth trying the FFG?

 

[longcruise]

I think it's well worth trying.

If you can get pyrodex, it is comparable to goex. Pyrodex RS is pretty much a perfect match for Goex 2f and the Pyrodex P is a match to goex 3f.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Swiss should be the fastest. Old E might be very close.

LD

 

[Sparkitoff]

I try to stay at 100-yards and I do use a rangefinder. Usually if I am waiting them out or sneaking to them I will stop and take the shot when we are 100-yards apart. Several bulls and cows at that range were taken cleanly. It is nice when one shows up closer in the first place, or when conditions allow me to know I can get closer without being detected. There have been two occasions when I shot past 100-yards on elk. In one case the cow was standing broadside and motionless. I had my rifle rested on a tree stump and I was sitting. The sights felt really solid and there was no reason for her to move closer and it had been a while. I put the sights to where I could see a slight line of hair over them, set the trigger and squeezed and followed through. She fell right there. I expected more drop but hit her dead center about 4" below my aimpoint. I had a bull elk over 100-yards and for 5-minutes he just looked straight at me. I was set up on sticks aiming towards him waiting for him to turn. Something came over me and I stared hard at him over the sight, moved the rifle slightly so the sights were just above his chest, set the trigger and let out a breath. This happened in a split second, like a said something came over me. He went straight down and rolled to the side. Still facing me, I could see the right side of his whole body now. As fast as I have ever reloaded I completed the task and got back on the sticks. I did not see movement and he may have been dead but I did not want to chance it. I shot again aiming slightly high on his ribcage and hit him squarely. All these were .54 caliber .530 ball over 80grain FFFg. My barrel is 34" and my chronograph says velocity at 5-feet from muzzle is 1734 FPS. I think you can use a ball with a very accurate combo of components and have confidence to 100-yards easily if you can see the sights and animal....and if you need to you can still get another 25-50 yards if you know the trajectory.

 

[yonderin]

Trajectory isn't a consistent arc. The further out you get, the steeper the fall. Once you find a load that suits you for accuracy, try sighting in at a hundred and confirming point of impact at closer ranges. Or, as suggested, sight in at a middle range and accept that you will still be lower (although not quite as much) at 100.

A PRB might be packing sufficient energy at max range for the job but the REAL should be carrying more unless the MV is a lot slower. You may or may not care about that. A REAL that won't shoot to where you want makes that a moot point.

I have no experience with them but recall reading that a lot of times a REAL shoots better with a wad under it. May or may not be relevant.

Are you possibly not getting a good enough seal with the REAL that you losing power and velocity to blowby? With a PRB, you can vary patch thickness to minimize that.