Elk load dilemma

[Griz44Mag]

Three in this house (50, 54 and 58), and I don't recall a single misfire in many years of use. And we almost never swab since we switched to TOW mink tallow. Sumpin else might be going on, but it's not the lettering on the barrels.

Bingo!
I had issues when I first got my TC and IA rifles First, I was wiping way to wet and using pre-lubed patches for the balls.
Fast forward and now I am using mink lubed patches and not wiping nearly as often (maybe every 15-20 shots now) and then to break up the crud ring at the ball seating depth. And when I do wipe, I lay the rifle down on the bench and not standing it up vertically. The mink patches do a very good job of wiping the last shot as they are loaded. I even took a camera snake and ran it down the barrel after loading to see what it looked like. It looked like the barrel had been cleaned. I too am convinced that there is no issue with the patent breech as long as you load smart.

 

[BrownBear]

There are a couple of things specific to Cabelas/Lyman/Investarms. Dunno if they have a thing to do with the failures reported here, but they sure affected me.

1. I have to be sure to raise the hammer and remove the old cap when loading. Seating the ball after pouring powder forces lots of air out the nipple and blows plenty of powder into the flame channel, so it's a non-issue for me.
2. The nipples that come on these rifles are notorious for being a bad mix with CCI caps in particular. The nipple is a little oversize and the cap can't seat all the way down, with misfires on first hammer fall as a result. A guy can either turn the nipples down slightly or toss them in favor of a better nipple (my choice), and misfires are gone.

Either way, in my own experiences, it has zero to do with a patent breech.

 

[Boomerang]

1. I have to be sure to raise the hammer and remove the old cap when loading. Seating the ball after pouring powder forces lots of air out the nipple and blows plenty of powder into the flame channel, so it's a non-issue for me.

Yep, I do the same thing and as long as I hear the air escaping from the nipple, then I know the fire channel is clear. If I forget to put the hammer on half cock and load it, then most of the time I will get a failure to fire.

 

[SDSmlf]

That cabelas hawken rifles i had and still have look nothing like that. The cva and traditions set up is much better flowing.

Guess CVA had design changes. Have pulled less half a dozen (because of bore being rusted out) Investarms/Cabelas and TCs, and that is what I found. Sample size must be too small.

Assume you have never had to slap a CVA caplock like myself or others have had to do for consistent ignition. Consider yourself fortunate.

Here is picture from an old CVA catalog that shows their problem child breech design that needs to be slapped to work the powder through the ‘communication hole’. Curious as to what improvement they have made to this design?

 

[Frontier's]

all my cva and traditions look like that. They always get turned sideways and slapped, including the lyman guns. I can shoot very chunky powder like American pioneer or alliant black mz without any trouble whatsoever.

Here's that cabelas hawken breech. Its just a tiny hole drilled through the side.

 

[Frontier's]

this is a tc breech. It has more twists and turns than the cva/traditions style, plus the powder channel is a lot smaller and pickier about chunky powder.

 

[SDSmlf]

I know that the Investarms breech area of the couple I have removed looked more like your second photograph. Don’t believe they were aftermarket, but who knows.

With the TC design, even though the diameter reduces as it goes to the cross hole at a slight angle (maybe 25° or 30°), the powder can continue to drop through, and in my opinion, ends up closer to the nipple and percussion cap blast than with the CVA design without having to slap the barrel.

Back to the OP’s question.

Find which projectile/powder charge shoots the best and then just adjust the sights for it to be dead on at 100 yards.

This is about what I do for most guns except ‘squirrel’ calibers. The next, and real important step, is to understand your projectile’s midrange (50 yards in this case) point of impact. With roundballs and a reasonable hunting load you shouldn’t be more than 3 or 4 inches high. With a larger conical, you may be quite a bit higher. You need to shoot to figure this out. Adjust your zero range until you have a midrange height that works. Then shoot to figure out at what distance (without adjusting sights or holding high) your load drops 3 or 4 inches (same as your midrange height). This is your point blank shooting distance. BrownBear suggests 75 yard zero. Not a bad place to start.

If you want a better look at the trajectory potential of the REAL, try sighting it in at 75 yards. It will be a similar couple of inches high at 50, and probably no more than 6 or 7 low at 100.

 

[Frontier's]

no matter what design, you should always slap the stock as it helps settle the powder and put it where it needs to go.

 

[brewer12345]

Just to bookend this one, I was at the range today and discovered that a 120 grain charge of Black MZ gave me tight groups at 50 and 100. A couple inches high at 50, dead on at 100. The flatness of the trajectory is probably a lie since my aim is different at 100, but it works. Since the REALs are tough to load, I found that 90 grains with a PRB shoots a couple inches high and to the left at 50 yards, which should be good enough for a follow up shot if necessary.

 

[Rat]

I shoot the REAL quite a bit, and they do seem to prefer a wad, in my rifles. For me, they shoot best with a minimum of lube. I like to sight dead on at 100, and then just aim a tiny tad bit low when I'm sure the animal is much closer, like fifty yards or less. But be careful about over-thinking trajectory in the field, as that can certainly lead to shooting over or under an animal. Always best to shoot center of mass, a few inches high or low does not make any real difference.

I have a tendency to shoot a bit left, which is because I do tend to cant my rifles. I have to think about it as I aim to keep them center. But two or three inches left at 100 yards does not really bother me for hunting, just shows up/really matters when doing target work.

24" is a very stubby barrel. Generally speaking, around 30" would still be considered on the shorter side. My Brown Bess with a 32" (33"?) is considered a carbine. My Jeager's barrel is 32"(ish) and Jeagers are generally considered short barreled rifles.

If you can order black powder, then it doesn't matter if you can't get it locally. Get some. I too would suggest 3fg in that super-stub, but really you won't see much difference, if any, using ffg. Swiss FFg should perform as well or better than other brands of fffg, but that is pure speculation. !!! At any rate, that barrel is probably more like a long pistol barrel, than a short rifle barrel, when it comes to ballistic efficiency with black powder, or substitutes. Good luck.

 

[30338]

Getting close to go time boys. Settled on 80 grains of ffg Swiss with a .570 roundball for this fall. 34" GRRW barrel. Was recommended that I up the charge to 140 grains lol. We'll see if slow and steady will work I reckon.

 

[azmntman]

Settled on 80 grains of ffg Swiss with a .570 roundball

That will work JUST SWELL! I have put many elk in the freezer from that load


HeMan that I am (was) I Once fired a .58 conical with 120 gr. Live and learn.

 

[Rat]

I use heavy charges as I hunt in Grizz-Land, and I have three .58's, but 140 is way out of the ball park for a .58". Yes, I have fired conicals with 120 grains, when I too was a He-Man. Recoil was "excessive" even for me. 100 grains is as high as I go with a ball these days, in a .58". 80 grains is a sweet but still powerful load, and that's what I feed my short-barrel .58. 140 grains is a large caliber Musket load. Why/who would suggest that for a .58'???

 

[30338]

My righthanded 54 was shooting round balls through large bucks with 95 grains of powder, but it seemed to like that load best. With limited testing the 58 loads super easy with a .015 patch and that matters to me for field use. And 100 is my outside limit with my eyesight so we'll be fine at 80.

In a 50 I killed a few bulls with conicals, but looking back, wish I had tried them with 70-80 grains of powder vs the 100 or so I used. Seems like 70-80 with a good conical would be fine for elk to me.

 

[azmntman]

When I first started BP hunting I killed a bull with .50 PRB. Shot Placement! I then got a .54 and killed a few with conicals. I now use PRB pretty much exclusively. I had a .58 conical with 80 gr once take a cow cleanly, I jumped her and at about 35 yds hit her hard in the shoulder area running, three leaps and she went home with me. I really believe its shot placement that counts more than anything, a .58 (.54) PRB woulda likely had the same result.

 

[brewer12345]

After a few really "special" days at work, I am gagging to get out in the woods with a gun in hand. Will start hoofing it at elevation on the first for blue grouse as a way to help make sure I am in shape for elk season in mid September. Getting beyond the reach of a cell signal is mighty appealing.