Embers left in the barrel after a shot?

[tenngun]

yes, I read the pinned conversation about. Is there any historical evidence of this being done?

Yes, we have multi references to blowing down the bore in the past. In one the death of a man who bent over his muzzle to push down the ball when the gun cooked off. This was attributed to his not blowing down the bore before loading.
there are many who think it unsafe and I don’t want to open that can of worms. However it is an historic practice.

 

[ADK Bigfoot]

ord sgt said:
I have had some burning embers light off the powder charge once. Rapid fire practice, load and fire while on the timer. It is most curious to see flames going between your fingers while loading a premeasured powder charge. Never did find the tube that held that powder.
Seen the same thing happen to another shooter while he was on the firing line, in the middle of the timed event. He continued to load and fire. It was not easy to handle the rammer with burns on his right hand but he was able to manage.

Is this mentioned at all in historical drill manuals? Or was it just something they lived with.


Soldiers had to have at least two opposed teeth to pull bullets and three fingers on the right hand to shoot with. We were taught to load and ram with the middle finger and thumb, to keep the trigger finger "safe." When I had the cook-off, my loading with my middle finger and thumb allowed me to keep firing despite the OMG going on in my palm. The trigger finger was safe....

ADK Bigfoot

 

[firestick]

Controversial, but I blow down the bore prior to loading. Another thing is I do not reload at anything close to fast.

I do the same. It was part of the limited knowledge taught to me back in 1985 when I made my 1st rifle. Probably won't change and definitely won't be getting any faster at reloading!

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Almost anytime you hear about this happening it’s because someone was shooting multiple rounds as fast as possible and using paper cartridges. Even then, as you’ve read it is very very rare and guys who’ve been shooting for decades might have seen it happen maybe once, if at all.

By loading from a measure and NEVER straight from a horn or flask, and using a traditional patched round ball rifle that isn’t tearing up patches as it’s fired, it is almost never likely to happen to you. Real black powder just doesn’t tend to make embers by itself. Even if it does, it will be when you’re pouring the loose powder down the barrel and all that’ll happen is you’ll get some burnt fingers but probably not badly at all.

DO NOT let it put you off muzzleloaders! It’s a non-issue as long as you use a bit of safety and common sense. Never hurts to slow down and take your time with these rifles.

 

[hawkeye2]

We see cook-offs in the N-SSA fairly often and they are not considered a shooting accident. There are rarely any injuries at all and the procedure is to drop the bullet you were about to load, take a fresh round and carry on. A friend's wife on our team, a newbie, was shooting beside me many years back when she experienced a cook-off which startled her so much she threw her musket on the ground and ran back behind the safety line. Neither my wife or I have experienced one. I was shooting a skirmish a couple of years ago, August, hot, in the 90s and we were shooting fast and not doing well. I don't remember how many rounds I fired but the barrel was so hot that I had to take a rag I keep tucked in my belt to wipe my hands on and put it through the sling swivel to have something to hold my Springfield with while I loaded as I couldn't touch the barrel. BTW, the only things allowed to go in the barrel are powder and minie. Hammer down, spent cap on the nipple, years of experience by the Association have proven that to be the safest way to load.

 

[RjSixgun]

A loaded N-SSA round is basically a plastic tube that uses a minie as a stopper. The premeasured powder charge is put into the tube. The tube is closed with a minie partially inserted nose first, then the exposed skirt is dip lubed and there you are. Authentically it was done with paper and string.

To fire an N-SSA round, pull the minie, pour the powder into the muzzle, insert and ram the minie, cap, aim fire, repeat very very quickly cuz the clock's running and fastest time wins and every other unit on the line is doing the same thing. The N-SSA Musket Nationals is as close as you're going to get to a battle line engaging in live fire these days. The main firing line at our home range Fort Shenandoah will accommodate 73 teams consisting of 8 men each. Each position has a target array of 32 clays on a backer. Fastest time wins, unbroken clays count against your score. Sometimes the weather can really bring home the concept of the "fog of war" when the smoke doesn't clear out and you can't see sights or targets clearly. The following pic is from our 2016 Fall Nationals. Time was 8:30a.

Might help to show them what we use
https://www.ssfirearms.com/proddetail.asp?prod=A-2R People are always asking me "hey where'd you get those!"

 

[DaveC]

As others have stated: Leave the hammer down on a just fired cap. That way there is little to no air circulating through the cone or the vent into the chamber. The smouldering embers or fouling will soon exhaust the oxygen in the barrel, and thus minimize any danger. The flint lock is put on half-cock, and the steel or battery is closed over the pan. In modern practice, priming is at the line, but historically, they'd have primed it with the piece at half cock and then loaded it.

In skirmishing, I've seen a "cook off" in which the charge being poured from a cartridge tube ignited. Unfortunately, the person who suffered the mishap had part of his hand over the muzzle and got burned. There was much discussion about what sort of lube was used on the Miniés and so on... In a patched round-ball gun I think it is much less likely, but it could theoretically happen. A lot of people wipe after 5 to 10 shots, others use a wet lube or greased patch that obviates wiping for quite a while.

 

[JCKelly]

First time I shot a muzzle loader was Grampa's shotgun in 1954. Have never had a gun go off when loading.

Oh, but I did sell my matchlock rifle to a guy who had a scarred index finger from his rifle-musket firing whilst loading for a rapid-fire contest.

And what possibly could be controversial about " . . . I blow down the bore prior to loading." ?????

 

[ord sgt]

It gets very intense on the N-SSA firing line with over 600 muskets being continuously fired, people yelling and an echo of the musket roar adding to the confusion.

 

[Prairieofthedog]

In a rifle, can't you just drop your ramrod down the the bore with a couple of short up and downs. Especially with old cap left on,you would think this would put out any spark.Thought I read this in a very old muzzleloader book?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Yes it can happen. So you always pour from a container like your horn or flask in to a measure and put the container out of the way before you pour the powder down the barrel.....I have never had one go off or seen it.....When it happens it is most likely, but still rare, with people shooting military style paper cartridges.

Sage advice, and I've seen it now, three times.

There were two times at a speed volley, live fire event. Where the shooters were loading and firing, as tenngun pointed out, military cartridges. Well it's not necessarily the cartridges, but the speed of the shooting that's the problem. The fellows using the muskets would tear and pour a measured load down the barrel, and then ram the ball that is still within the paper down the bore. Luckily, the powder went off during the pouring portion, not the ramming portion, so the guys only got some burned fingers.

The third time was a very brisk blank firing known as "street firing", where the folks shooting the blanks alternate by ranks and load and fire as fast as they get the orders. This was after about 15 volleys, so the muskets were very dirty, and as they are not rammed when shooting blanks in a tactical scenario (some folks ram paper when doing a solo demonstration for the public) the ash and crud in the barrel built up and held a leftover ember in a very very hot barrel. So the powder went up and the lad got some burned finger tips.

NOTE that these were all with muskets, and speed, and not with rifles at a range, where one often swabs between shots, or every few shots, etc.

No the ramrod alone won't do much to squelch and ember. You have very little chance of one with a rifle, anyway.

LD

 

[dave951]

It gets very intense on the N-SSA firing line with over 600 muskets being continuously fired, people yelling and an echo of the musket roar adding to the confusion.

That's half the fun. A good friend of mine on our team can only show at Nationals due to distance. We stand next to each other in the firing line and give each other crap the entire relay. He'll miss a pigeon and I'll yell, "somebody's got yer slack since you can't shoot anyway.." and I'll shoot his pigeon and he'll shoot one of mine in turn while I'm reloading saying something along the lines of being too slow. Good times.

 

[bud in pa]

Reading these threads I realized an advantage to old age and arthritis. I cant load fast enough to cause a cook off!

 

[tenngun]

A soldier had to get a shot off fast or get a yard of steel in his belly. We don’t have to today.
“Speed is the device of Satan’ Frank Herbert

 

[Billy Boy]

Yes it can happen. So you always pour from a container like your horn or flask in to a measure and put the container out of the way before you pour the powder down the barrel.
Then you never put your body or head over the barrel when pushing the ball down. If it were to go off you only want your hand injured.
I’m 63 started shooting ml in in the 1970s. And 99%+ of my shooting is ml. I have not hunted with a modern gun since 1976.
I have never had one go off or seen it.
When it happens it is most likely, but still rare, with people shooting military style paper cartridges.
Another cause is hot dry days and shooting a dirty gun.
A swab between shots prevents it. It only adds a few seconds to reloading.
A blast of air down the bore limits the chances. You can get a small flexible plastic tube and blow on one end while holding the other in the bore. Blowing directly down the bore is against the rules at many ranges and in many events, though that’s what old timers did.
Military shooters can get four or more shots a minute. Shooting a civilian rifle it’s rare to load quicker then a minute. Take your time you should not have a problem. Just to be on the safe side risk your hand only.
Even with out swabbing if you just take your time it’s hard to load a civilian arm fast enough to be a danger.

Tattoos were popular throughout the muzzleloading epoch; face and hand powder tattoos from trying to reload a little to quickly after the last shot.

 

[firestick]

Reading these threads I realized an advantage to old age and arthritis. I cant load fast enough to cause a cook off!

I agree! Slow and steady as she goes.

 

[FiremanBrad]

Drop your rangerod down the bore between shots.

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

Controversial, but I blow down the bore prior to loading. Another thing is I do not reload at anything close to fast.

Bingo!! Safety is something you should never rush!
Flintlocklar

 

[Crow-Feather]

40 years and it has never happened to me or anyone that I knew. But I still would rather pour powder in my palm and from my palm into the barrel if that was all I had. I have had a handful of 3F go off next to my hand. Funny how fast it burns when you are used to modern powder. Didn't burn my hand, but I was missing hair on the back of my hand for a while. Touch a match to black powder, you can't pull it back fast enough.

 

[firestick]

Always heard don't load from a flask or horn. One day we got curious as to how bad could it be? Took some cannon fuse and stuck it in my buddy's flask for his pistol. It was about half full. Lets just say the fireball was rather large and you would be in a world of hurt if it was in your hand. Load ONLY with a measurer and now I know EXACTLY WHY!