Enfield 1853 repro identification

[BlackPowderKeg]

Hi all, had seen this musket in the store and wanted to get your opinions before buying it. It looks like some sort of defarbed repro but again I know very little about it. Is it Parker Hale or DGG or Pedersoli? Can anyone please advise me

 

[BlackPowderKeg]

 

[BlackPowderKeg]

 

[kh54]

First, I am no expert. Second, that looks like a nice gun! And now…

Have you removed the barrel to see if there are any clues to manufacturer or the gunsmith who might have defarbed it? I’ve had Todd Watts defarb several of my guns and he re-stamps the original serial number on the underside of the barrel.

I understand that Parker Hale only used only Baddeley-type barrel bands so unless someone swapped yours for the Palmer-type bands it isn’t a Parker Hale. I was also told that Parker Hale made some P1853s with 1:48 twist rifling for export to the U.S. It’s probably a long shot but you might check the rifling.

Hopefully someone with more knowledge will be along soon to correct me or provide more information. Good luck!

 

[Conquerordie]

The odd thing is the stock has a BSAT rondel, but the lock and barrel both have broad arrows signifying government used. Those two things don't go together. The barrel is also stamped for 24 gauge or 58 caliber, which would represent an gun made for a Union contract during the civil war. Standard British guns were marked 25 or .577 caliber. The VR under the tower is seen on British military owned firearms. Barnett did put VR under Tower on his locks, but no broadarrows. So all the defarbed markings seem to tell a confusing story. On PH used progressive depth rifling in the barrels. That's a sure way to tell if it's a PH. I can't really tell just looking at it in the pics.

 

[TFoley]

The odd thing is the stock has a BSAT rondel, but the lock and barrel both have broad arrows signifying government used. Those two things don't go together. The barrel is also stamped for 24 gauge or 58 caliber, which would represent an gun made for a Union contract during the civil war. Standard British guns were marked 25 or .577 caliber. The VR under the tower is seen on British military owned firearms. Barnett did put VR under Tower on his locks, but no broadarrows. So all the defarbed markings seem to tell a confusing story. On PH used progressive depth rifling in the barrels. That's a sure way to tell if it's a PH. I can't really tell just looking at it in the pics.

Parker-Hale only used progressive rifling on the P61 so-called Musketoon.

The escutcheons are also square-eared, rather than rounded.

This is a Parker-Hale repro -

I've never seen ANY repro with the correctly-shaped 'ears'.

This odd-looking 'arrow-through-crown' stamp indicates that it was 'sold-out-of-service' - Note that MANY contractors supplied the Crown with firearms, hence the VR. The 'Tower' stamp is simply indicative that it was assembled from brought-in components in the Tower of London, at that time the principal armoury of the British Army. BSA in Birmingham were simply another provider of components.

Although the wood looks VERY much like new, I'm inclined to think that all else is original, unless, of course, your US-based fakers are doing EVERY single stamps that might be expected on a commercially-produced P53 for the home Volunteer market.

 

[ResearchPress]

The barrel is also stamped for 24 gauge or 58 caliber......... Standard British guns were marked 25 or .577 caliber.

(23 gauge is .587) . . . 24 gauge is actually .579 and 25 gauge is .571.
If the barrel is stamped 25, it means it will accept a .571 gauge, but not .579. As .577 lies within this range, so the barrel is stamped 25.
If the barrel is stamped 24, it means it will accept a .579 gauge, but not .587. So, as .58 lies in this range, so the barrel is stamped 24.

David

 

[ResearchPress]

Parker-Hale only used progressive rifling on the P61 so-called Musketoon.
This odd-looking 'arrow-through-crown' stamp indicates that it was 'sold-out-of-service'

Parker-Hale also used progressive depth rifling on their P.58 Naval Rifle.
The Crown with downward pointing arrow is a viewers mark. (Opposed Broad Arrows were used for sold out of service).

David

 

[springfield art]

First, I am no expert. Second, that looks like a nice gun! And now…

Have you removed the barrel to see if there are any clues to manufacturer or the gunsmith who might have defarbed it? I’ve had Todd Watts defarb several of my guns and he re-stamps the original serial number on the underside of the barrel.

I understand that Parker Hale only used only Baddeley-type barrel bands so unless someone swapped yours for the Palmer-type bands it isn’t a Parker Hale. I was also told that Parker Hale made some P1853s with 1:48 twist rifling for export to the U.S. It’s probably a long shot but you might check the rifling.

Hopefully someone with more knowledge will be along soon to correct me or provide more information. Good luck!

Hello. I have a Todd Watts from about the early 2000's; Blockade Runner offered it. Watts' work got high praise from the author of The Civil War Musket book. My only complaint would be the weight! Over ten pounds! Has a finely fitted-honed bayonet; I've never fired it, and will look to sell it as it's "surplus" to me now.

 

[TFoley]

Parker-Hale also used progressive depth rifling on their P.58 Naval Rifle.
The Crown with downward pointing arrow is a viewers mark. (Opposed Broad Arrows were used for sold out of service).

David

Ta for the correctment.

So I'm partly-correct about the progressive rifling, used only on the two-band P.58 and P.61. The OP's arm is a three-band whatever it might eventually turn out to be.

 

[Conquerordie]

Eithe way, those marking are not correct for a Civil War P53. Some are commercial and some are government. I think it's just a repro that someone got stamp happy with. Looking closer at the pics, it looks like a two piece breech. You can see the seam line. PH didn't use that type of breach. Dont know who does. And Indian gun maybe?

 

[BlackPowderKeg]

Eithe way, those marking are not correct for a Civil War P53. Some are commercial and some are government. I think it's just a repro that someone got stamp happy with. Looking closer at the pics, it looks like a two piece breech. You can see the seam line. PH didn't use that type of breach. Dont know who does. And Indian gun maybe?

rifled Indian gun

 

[Trot]

Eithe way, those marking are not correct for a Civil War P53. Some are commercial and some are government. I think it's just a repro that someone got stamp happy with. Looking closer at the pics, it looks like a two piece breech. You can see the seam line. PH didn't use that type of breach. Dont know who does. And Indian gun maybe?

I believe all the Italian repros and Parker Hale used that type of breech.

 

[Conquerordie]

I stand corrected. Thank you for the pic. I should have looked more closely at the PH Enfields and other repros breech sections.

 

[Mle1822]

The stock looks a bit like italian repro, but rest does not. I have a current Pedersoli P53 and this thing is nothing like it. Either its an old repro or it has been hugely reworked. It could also be a reworked Armi Sport or Euroarms, I never had those.