Enfield accuracy issue

[TalShiar]

Hi, i recently took up black powder by purchasing a Euroarms 3 band Enfield. Since then i have been trying to figure out how to make it shoot straight, None of the bullets seem to land with any regularity, 25 they seem to fall within a 1 foot radius and at 50 about twice that.

I casted my own minie balls using no. 4 shotgun pellets as a source of lead. Used this mould: http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=8034
The minies seem to be in good condition with no obvious disfigurement. Ive been using various loads of triple 7 powder - about 90 grains seems to reduce the randomness a bit.

possible culprits at the moment -
lead pellets are not pure enough making a hard bullet.
Bullets not correct for the enfield?

Ive gotten some tire weights for melting down instead of the pellets - i wanted to know if anyone has had any trouble with this sort of lead before - and if so what is a good source for aquiring pure lead.
And ive also heard that roundshot works great as well - would i be better off abandoning conical bullets completely?

Thanks for any help.

 

I have a Zouave .58 that gives me fits. I found heavy charges are not good. 60 grains of black or maybe even 50 as a starting point is a good idea. Cut 777 charges by 20% and go from there. Also try some solid bullets, like the Hornady Great Plains, that might help.
By all means try the roundball as some report great accuracy depending upon the twist rate of your barrel. I don't know what the twist rate of your gun is.
My Zouave will do 1.5" at 50 so I guess that isn't too bad. That's with the Hornady and Buffalo solid base bullet.
Do NOT use wheel weight metal for muzzle loader bullets. Too hard.
There are many sources of soft lead. Junk yards, plumbers, roofers, and there is always buying some from a source on the net. Just do a search and you'll find metal sources galore. Shipping of course is a tad expensive.
Shooting ranges are another source of free lead if you know of one that caters to a lot of black powder shooters. It's pretty easy to pick up 10 or 20 pounds of spent bullets, clean 'em up and melt them down.

 

[robinghewitt]

There's always Bill Curtis. Rather depends on how much information you can handle :: Here's a link

Managing the Enfield

 

[Donny]

I think there is some info muskets on the North South Skirmish Ass'n site. Don

 

1st of all, you need to use pure lead for your minnie, not #4 shot or any other size as shot has antimony in it and even with soft shot, at a mere 2 or 3%, it's too hard for bullets that have to expand to fill the rifling.
: That said, I recommend patched round balls, especially for the 3 band Enfields as they have or should, have a 72" to 78" twist. This is too slow for really accurate shooting with minnies, anyway. The heaviest charge seems to give the best accuracy, due to the hard minnies not expanding at all to grab the rifling properly with lighter charges.
: A proper, mil-spec charge for that rifled musket, in Triple 7 powder would be around 48gr., due to normal charging being around 60gr., then reduced by 20% for T7(not entirely sure on English ctg. charge for .58's) Your 90gr. charge, being 80% of the actual BP equivalent, is equivalent to approximately 110gr. 2 or 3F, depending on the granulation of the T7. That's a pretty stiff charge, but fine pressure wise- not dangerous.
: Tire weights, commonly called wheel weights, or WW are even higher in antimony content - around 7% to 8% and of course, too hard.
: If you want to shoot such hard lead, you'll have to use a patch with RB that just barely fills the bore and probably a wad of some sort on the powder to keep the pressure back. Due to pressures being very low in .58 cal with what people think of as being normal charges, WW or #4 shot cast balls might work just fine. I'd use a 9 thou patch(from Track) with .570 balls and a Waters Vegetable fibre wad or other wad between the patched ball and powder. I expect the accuracy should improve to 2" to 2 1/2" at 50yds, given reasonably good sights. The 2 band P.H. Enfields shot into 2", and the 3 band P.H. shot into 1" at that range during our trials in the 70's. This was with pure lead balls and an appropriate patch of .015" or so. The pure lead balls(you can buy them that size) will allow a tighter combo than WW balls will. Also, the pure lead balls don't require a wad of anything between them and the powder. The muzzle probably needs re-crowning to allow such snug ball/patch combos. Emery cloth on your thumb makes a good tool for re-crowning, smoothing the inisde edge so it doens't cut the patch. Just rotate the barrel (change it's ossition relative to your thumb) to get an even crown. It is easily done and quick to do - doens't take much time on the rifled muskets.

 

[Charles/NM]

: Tire weights, commonly called wheel weights, or WW are even higher in antimony content - around 7% to 8% and of course, too hard.
A Google search of WW makers revealed around 3% antimony content. It's still probably too hard for BPML bullets. I'm going to cast some RB and Maxi's out of WW lead just to satisfy my curiosity. Recycled airgun pellet lead works very well. That's good since I have 50 pounds of pellet lead salvaged from my pellet trap. If you have active airgunners in your area you could ask them for their scrap lead. From what I've read on the airgun forums they usually don't know how to get rid of it.

 

[TalShiar]

Thanks for the tips, i think im going to get a box of hornady .570 rb and see if those work. Im going to see about finding some pure lead as well, though i would be interested in knowing if said rb is pure lead and would be suitable to be melted down and recasted using my mould? You said that rb could be harder, do manufactured bullets tend to be harder as well or would this be pure lead?

 

[TalShiar]

sorry for continuing the thread, i came upon some ingots of lead just today. I have several small bars of lead with LEE stamped upon it, and several without any markings. Is there any reliable way to tell if this lead would be suitable for a minie ball?

 

[Stumpkiller]

If you can scratch it with your thumbnail it's OK. People who are desperate for lead push harder, so it is a self-fulfilling test.

 

[TalShiar]

Ok, thank you all for your help. One last thing, (perhaps, seeing as i always remember questions after the fact - thanks for putting up with me) Im going to try some round shot as well as some pure (i hope!) lead minies. Round shot remains somewhat of a mystery to me, ive read through what i could find and the main gist ive gotten sofar is round works best on slow twist rifles and a patch must be inserted between the powder and bullet. Ive been recommended a .570 bullet for a .58 calibre rifle, seeing as how a projectile being able to grip the rifling is paramount for a stable flight (otherwise it bounces around the barrel) I do not fully understand why i would want a bullet even smaller than the diameter of my current minies. Is there any material online, or primers, that would explain the physics of a round ball and how patches and wads factor into this? Again, thanks for your patience with a newcomer.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I planar section through a sphere around the circumference has a infinitessimally small surface around that circle. In order for the ball to grab the rifling, it must be deformed slightly to produce a wider bearing area. The lands stick farther into the boore than the grooves, and these press into the ball/patch as it is set in at the muzzle. When this is done with a lead ball of the diameter of the grooves (or slightly larger) it becomes very difficult to ram it down the barrel - a hammer is needed. The solution is to use a slightly smaller ball and a gasket made of a compressable material to seal the bore and engage the rifling - and the added benefit of holding a lube which softens the powder residue and makes following shots easier to load.

On firing, the inertia of the soft lead causes it to further upset, squeezing tighter into the barrel walls, and so, taking even more of the rifling.

I don't know of a source for measurements or a better explanation on the Internet. Maybe someone else here has one?

 

Stumpy, well, put! On another forum I had a guy, a well known maker of fine barrels no less, argue that the roundball does NOT obturate at all upon fireing. :hmm:
I disagreed with him (politely of course as you know how low key and soft spoken I am, as dimplomacy is everything)and I really started a rukus. To rephrase your eloquent disertaiton, the bearing surface of a sphere (ball, if you all don't know what a sphere is :haha is itty bitty. You need the cloth patch to grab the rifling and transfere the rotation of the rifling to the ball. Of course the thing shortens (obturates) upon firing. It may not be much, but it does shorten.
I had fellas on that other forum argue that they recovered balls in such perfect condition that they couldhave been used again. I wonder if anyone actuall took a micrometer to a fired recovered ball and measured it? One also wonders what they were shooting into that would stop the ball yet not deform it? Maybe a lot of whipped cream? :crackup: :crackup:

 

TalShiar- where are you located??
: : You are right, you can use a "slightly" harder ball than pure lead, but a harder ball is harder to load than pure lead. Pure lead, also called "Plumbers Lead", is the softest of all and the easiest to load & is highly recommended, especially for beginners to this sport.
: A ball cast from Wheel Weights will be almost impossible to load with a combination that goes to the bottom of the grooves, even in a barrel with shallow rifling.

 

[ResearchPress]

: That said, I recommend patched round balls, especially for the 3 band Enfields

I never really understood the point in buying a rifle designed to shoot the Minie bullet, only to use patched ball. Might be fun for short range but part of the challenge and enjoyment of muzzle loading is learning how to get the best out of the rifles as they were designed to be used.

A link to the Managing the Enfield article has already been posted. There is much helpful information there.

For the Enfield the service charge was about 70 grains. Try a FFg grade powder. The deep based Minie bullets in soft lead generally give best results with the three-band Enfields.

Here in the UK we have matches with Enfields out to 600 yards, and in a few weeks, exceptionally, at 800 yards which should be fun!

David

 

[Zonie]

TalShiar: The patch is not just a wad to be placed between the powder and the ball. The ball is wrapped in the patch.

The patch diameter must be quite a bit larger than the ball diameter so it will wrap itself around the ball during the loading process.
When loading, after the powder is poured down the barrel, the patch is placed on the muzzle. As I mentioned, it is larger than the bore so it will rest there while you place the ball in the center of it.
You will have to force the ball/patch into the bore with something. A block of wood will do, but most people use a "Short starter". A short starter is usually a wooden ball with a short dowel and a longer dowel sticking out the side of it.

If you have a Short Starter, first use just the ball portion and your free hand to drive the ball/patch into the muzzle. Then use the short dowel to drive the ball/patch down into the bore. Then use the long dowel to drive the ball/patch further into the bore, and finish ramming it down so that it rests on top of the powder.

As you can see, because the patch is wrapped around the ball it's thickness on each side of the ball makes the combinations diameter equal to the ball size plus twice the patch thickness.
This is the reason the ball must be undersize.
A .570 ball plus a .015 thick patch will have a total diameter of .570+.015+.015 or .600 before it is loaded into the barrel.
As .600 is larger than the bore (.580) plus the rifleing grooves (.008?+.008?)=.596, the patched ball will totally seal the bore.

 

[TalShiar]

It all makes sense now I shall try to get out to the range monday and ill see if anything works. Thank you all for your help.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Copper is quite a bit less maliable that lead, and pressures in barrels are measured (well, before piezo electric sensors) by the amount a copper plug threaded into the breech is compressed during a firing (The C.U.P. listed behind pressure figures in reloading manuals is "Copper Units of Pressure"). If it is compressing that plug, it follows that it compress the softer "plug" of a lead projectile. Yes, the copper plug is rigidly held, but the lead must overcome the inertia of it's own mass - for an instant it is no more than a barrel obstruction.

The barrel itself changes shape, performing a snake-swollowing-an-egg routine as the projectile passes through. Of course, in the metal walls or the barel it is just a tiny, tiny deformation.

 

[peter]

I get my lead from local sporting goods store, it's the same stuff fishermen use. I know of a couple of gun shops that sell reloading supplies also sell lead ingots that have lyman name on them. You mentioned books or manuals, I picked up a couple written by Sam Fadala, he covers the basics including safety issues.

 

[robinghewitt]

I never really understood the point in buying a rifle designed to shoot the Minie bullet, only to use patched ball.

Hello David

Didn't know you were here otherwise I would have mentioned that the Enfield link was to your web site

I don't think you'll have much luck selling Minie's to this bunch though, round ball with black powder seems to be one of those truths they hold to be self evident ::

Robin G Hewitt

 

David- the only reason for trying patched round balls in the Enfield is to get the very best acuracy from the gun. In this particular expample, the problem is with fit and/or lead quality with minnies, as well as inexperience with BP shooting.
: The "other" reason for using round balls in the Enfield is for a much superior hunting projectile, over the minnie.
; The quickest was to get good accuracy from one of these slow twist minnie rifles, is with round balls.
: For absolute range, the minnie, of course is superior as it will travel further. The ball is about done at a max range of 600yds. I've seen posted, whereas the minnie might travel over 2,000yards, perhaps not.
: Once accuracy is guranteed, a person can then fiddle with minnies as there is a good chance several moulds will have to be purchased before a good shooter will be found- perhaps not. The slightly tighter bores of the Enfields might make that easier, especially with the 575312OldStyle minnie for the slow twist rifles.