Enfield accuracy issue

[ResearchPress]

Daryl,

I appreciate hunting has different needs to the target shooter, which I am, but no mention as to hunting or target shooring was made in the original post.

Regarding very best accuracy, all that is relative. For instance at 200 yards and beyond the Minie bullets would out perform patch ball.

The original Enfields (and the Parler-Hale repros) had tapered rifling, the grooves getting shallower to the muzzle. Out of curiousity does your rifle have tapered rifling, and is there any probelm with the patch skipping the rifling?

David

 

[cayugad]

Midway USA - A Place to buy Pure Lead


TalShiar.. first off welcome to the board. I am glad to see you made it over to this forum as I suggested. I knew these guys would have much better answers for you.

The above link is a place where I buy pure lead from time to time. I was doing some reading on your rifle. It sounds like a very interesting rifle. I will be waiting to hear how well it shoots.

 

We were conderned with the deeper grooves at the breech possilby burning or blowing patches, but that didn't happen for some reason- perhaps obturation WAS working with the tight combo's we used.
: I'd always thought the 3 band didn't have tapered depth rifling, but only the 48" twist 2 band and musketoon. It could be that the 3 band also had that style of rilfing, which it should have had to be an accurate copy.
; It was due to this successfull English tapered depth rifling, that the US minnie rifles were made with that same style of rifling, but they only sued the 5 groove in the Officers and Sgts. rifles, apparently.
: Accuracy at 200yds.- yes- minie's would probably be better- maybe- but past 200yds. for sure - BUT- that Enfield will drive 5 of those balls into 2" or less at 100 meters, something the minnies won't do - or cut a jagged hole for 5 shots at 50yds. - At least, I've yet to see a minnie rifle do that using a descent powder charge (issue or larger).
: I never owned one, but worked closely with 4 guys in developing loads for theirs and re-sighting them for BP rendezvous competition. The 3 band PH Enfleds rifles were as accurate as any BP rifle out there, with RB. The 2 band rifles were very close in accuracy, but not quite as good as the 3 band rifles. They were, of course, better for hunting, being shorter.

 

[ResearchPress]

The 3 band or Pattern 1853 Rifle-musket had progressive depth rifling from the late production of the 2nd model in 1858. The Parker-Hale reproductions were manufactured with this progressive depth rifling, although I don't know about other manufacturers. Grooves were .015 depth at the breech and .005 at the muzzle. Rifling was 3 groove.

My best at 200yds with my Enfield was shot earlier this year where I won the National 200 yard Championships. Group size was about 6". This is shot with a service charge (75 grains) and prone with only a sling for support (ie no rest, cross sticks etc). Gun is a Pattern 1860 Short Rifle.

The World Record at 100m is 99 shot on a 10 ring target with a 2" dia bull and Minie bullets. Minie will shoot accurately.

Your observations re the merits of accuarcy of 2 and 3 band rifles is interesting. Perhaps the slower twist of the 3-band suits patched ball better than the the faster twist on the 2-band. The 2 band (with heavy barrel, eg P/58) is generally the favoured rifle for target shooting in the UK. Of course this may have something to do with the rearsight being placed further forwards and giving a better sight picture. From my observations there does not appear to be much if any differnece between the two rifles at longer ranges.

David

 

[robinghewitt]

Here's a pic of an Enfield rifling machine of 1855, presumably non-progressive? I think he lost his perspective somewhat ::

 

I have always wanted a Parker Hale 2 band with the 48" twist for long range shooting, using short slugs. The #575213OS that I modified was exceptionally accurate in the .58's I tried I in, my Hawken, Zouave, and Hopkins and Allen underhammer .58, all with 66" and slower twists, but alas, I've not tried it in the PH Enfield 48". Of course, I no longer have those moulds or rifles. Drats!!
: When recounting the accuracy of the minnies in the PH's, Itiallian Enfields and the Zouaves, I was telking about what I saw others in the various clubs getting from theirs using the standard minnies.(non-modified) They had an immediate accuracy improvement when we started switching them to round balls, even in the 48" twist 2 banders. n those days, the Zouave's were 72" twist.
: THE minnie rifle I would most like to have, today, is an 1840(flinter) or 1842 US model(persussion) both .69, and rifled (later contrat)& 42" barrels of course, with progressive depth, just as the originals. These were said to be the most accurate of all minnie rifles, much more so than the .58 cal., and especially for long range work. Some, the full length rifled muskets, were sighted to 1,000 yards while the shorter 32" barreled guns were sighted to 800 or so, yards. The 730gr. minnie did recoil with the 70gr. charge, but is entirely managable in the rifle's 9lb. or greater weight. I don't think I'd like to shoot it prone, though. THAT would be hard on the collar bone, even with the light, 70gr. issue charge. :shocking:

 

[TalShiar]

Back, today i made the 45 minute trek to the nearest rifle range in the area. I brought 2 types of shot, .570 hornady round and 5 minies that i just recently cast out of a small quantity of pure lead i have. Anyway, i used a 1 3/4 " hoppes patch - i know its kinda cheap, seemed like the best they had in stock at bass pro. The weave seemed kinda loose and the first few shots revealed the patch burned clean through. So i stuffed another patch down ahead of it followed by the roundshot folded in its patch. This seemed to work well, i fired about 20 bullets that averaged within a 7 inch group at 50 yards (60 grains of triple7) - far far from good but its the best its done yet. I lubed a few patches with bore butter - but its difficult to tell if it made a difference because of a problem i will address later. The patches, despite my ignorance to the width, seemed to work well - bullet was relatively difficult to get down the barrel requiring repeated use of the starter as previously mentioned.

The minies i fired, also lubed, were less promising but again and improvement - i guess. 3 bullets were located about 2 inches from each other. two others, hit about 2 feet lower than those 3 about an inch from each other despite having aimed at the same place each time. Despite my efforts - the small quantity of lead made for hard casting and the bullets were far from my best - im going to purchase more lead and see if that helps. Also concerned bullets are too small, they fit down the barrel easily enough that it takes minimal force to get them down and i do not need a starter.

Now that it seems to be shooting consistantly another problem has revealed itself. Ive always known the enfield to shoot high, at 50 yards about 1 1/2 feet high, and the sights seem to be skewed to shoot a few inches to the right. The sights being literally attached to the barrel, im a little puzzled on how to adjust the sights - any thoughts on this?

i figured i could lower the flight of the rifle by elevating the ladder sights a bit. havent given much thought as to how yet.

Anyway, Im very happy the rifle is now actually hitting the target. I think ill want to find better patches for the roundshot and hopefully i can cast some better pure minies. Thanks for all your help, any other ideas on where to go from here are much appreciated.

 

We had to change the front sight almost entirely - I filed off the blade, then dovetailed the 'lump' that was left for a .303 Enfield front blade with small base. This blade was filed thin for an adjustable blade sight. We used one high enough that with the rear sight in it's lowest position, a 25yd. zero could be made. This usually also gives a zero at around 50yds., dependingon the charge.
: The patches you used were thin as you expected- without having the strength of weave necessary for single patching, as you found. They are cleaning patches, probably coton, but only sesigned for holding solvent. Your accuracy with round balls will improve once you get better patches.
; As far as the accuracy with the minnies, they have to be perfect and should be a bushing fit in the barrel for best accuracy.
; What mould are you using? - Lee? Lyman? Shilo?
; My best minnie accuracy was with bullets that cut the rifling slightly when loading. With this snug a fit, the hollow base isn't necessary and a solid flat base shoots as well or better due to being much stronger and more easily cast. Adjusting expensive moulds isn't a job for the faint of heart and requires a degree of mechanical skill with tools. A bench mounted drill press is useful in lapping out moulds to a larger size, but can be done using a poor man's lathe which is an electric drill held in a 4" bench vise. As well, the same tools can be used in reducing the diameter of the Hollow Base plunger to thicken the skirt. This also makes casting easier and increases the strength of the bullet's skirts.

 

[robinghewitt]

For best accuracy size them .001" loose. My mould casts them too small so I just squeeze them down lengthwise to fatten them up.

I size them with the lube already in the grooves so they look a bee's backside ::

 

[TalShiar]

the mould i use is a .577 rapine. http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=8034

interesting idea, ill try stuffing a few in a vice and seeing if that makes it a tighter fit.

 

Unfortuneately, the add doesn't show a picture. Try a wood backing on the jaws for protection of the lead, if possible.
; The vise might work OK, and making a die would involve more equipment, like a lathe.

 

I think you are on the right track but you must know your bore size. My Springfield is .580 and I size my rapine .577s to .577. You must use pure lead. You would not imagine how much difference there is from one round to the next. I can shoot[url] 1.5in[/url] groups at 50 yds and 4in groups at 100 yds using 50 grs 2FF with minnies!!!! This is a 1:78 twist by the way.I use a bees wax lube. I am a member of the NSSA you can go the that bullitinboard for good info on how to shoot these guns accurately . Good luck.