Enfield vs Springfield

[Stantheman86]

Many of the Enfields the Union issued, recall they were all English imports, and were 'seconds' to begin with; the dealers in England rushed to sweep up large numbers and ship them to the US. Our National Armory and (22!) contractors turned out a good product.

+1 the British were happy to sell the CS and US all their Crimean War vet early Enfields , which were still very good but had no doubt seen hard use. So for a young soldier, a gleaming, brand new Armory Bright '61 Springfield was an upgrade to a field rashed almost 10 year old Enfield that had already been through 1 war.

 

[Stantheman86]

I recall reading somewhere that as soon as Union troops were offered new Springfields they gladly traded in their Enfields. I have an original of each and a couple of reproductions of each. Maybe I just don't shoot enough (never enough!) but I can't tell why the Springfields might have been preferred. Maybe it really came down to convenience of the band springs versus screws for disassembly and cleaning. (All my reproduction Enfields have bunged up band screws from previous owners.)

I don't really notice any difference for me in the "fit" and I like shooting both. I'm always testing loads and lube but I try only to use Miniés that are as close to design, size and weight as originals as my molds and sizing dies will allow. I may not have the best accuracy but it gives me a better sense for what the ACW soldiers' experiences might have been, my goal in owning and shooting these in the first place.

The book "Facts and Myths of the Rifle-Musket" covers this , with the Union and CSA troops receiving the first batches of old, rashed up Enfields and having to pound on the ramrod with rocks to seat the early .577 Minie balls

 

[kh54]

Thanks for the information!

 

[Stantheman86]

This extract from 'Drill and Rifle Instruction for Volunteer Rifle Corps' (1859) should help along with Stan's explanation.

View attachment 141637

It's not unusual to see bemoaning that the Enfield shoots high, but as Stan notes that is often because people are taking a full sight, not the half sight which was the usual method. That and not using ammunition with the same characteristics as the 19thC issued ammunition.

David

This is the pic I was looking for , Thank You Sir

 

[Stantheman86]

I have repro of both, and had at one time originals, too. Back in the early '60's, I fired live an Enfield musket which I later found out was a CS import; how many guys can say they fired live a real Confederate musket? Whew. Anyway, have repros of 42 Springfield, 61 Springfield (x2), and Enfield de-farb by the Blockade Runner; the later appearance of an 'accuracy modified' Enfield by Pedersoli kind of killed the cottage-industry of 'de-farbing'; most of us have flint muskets, too, but that's for another post. Your comments are right on. The replica 61 Springfields have flash pathways that are not as direct as the Original armory muskets. That's why the finicky schtick.

I probably won't buy any more repro 61 Springfield rifles because of that serpentine flash channel. If my brand new Pedersoli CS Richmond is finicky in ignition I'll probably eat a $200 loss and sell it, and hunt down another Parker-Hale P53 or a 2-bander. My Armi-Sport CS Richmond gets cranky after 30 or 40 rounds , it starts the
" pop - no boom" game while I've regularly fired my P-H Musketoons all day, burning through 50+ cartridges without cleaning and it always fires on the first cap.

I even tried some of the much hated new CCI Musket caps in my P-H Musketoon a few days ago, no problems, first pop it fired . Which is good because a sketchy GB seller flim flammed me and I ended up with 600 of them instead of the Rio caps.

 

[flintsteel]

I own a PH.451 Enfield Volunteer I use as a backup to my flintlocks in case of weather or terrain I’m hunting. I’m used to shooting a lot of drop in my stock and the Enfoeld is a real pain to get down on. I once sent the gun to a great gunsmith and he attempted to heat and bend the stock down. No luck. The wrist has way too much wood in it to properly bend in the manner side by side shotguns can be easily bent. Oh well, I’ve about aged out of hunting elk so it doesn’t make much difference though. I must say, when a bull elk has been hit with my 492 grain slug it has been “game over”. The pure lead slug is a potent projectile and accurate.

 

[Stantheman86]

I own a PH.451 Enfield Volunteer I use as a backup to my flintlocks in case of weather or terrain I’m hunting. I’m used to shooting a lot of drop in my stock and the Enfoeld is a real pain to get down on. I once sent the gun to a great gunsmith and he attempted to heat and bend the stock down. No luck. The wrist has way too much wood in it to properly bend in the manner side by side shotguns can be easily bent. Oh well, I’ve about aged out of hunting elk so it doesn’t make much difference though. I must say, when a bull elk has been hit with my 492 grain slug it has been “game over”. The pure lead slug is a potent projectile and accurate.

You could probably "dish out" the stock like a 1777 Charleville to get a better weld.

My Volunteer rifle beats my right cheekbone up

 

[BruceB]

The book "Facts and Myths of the Rifle-Musket" covers this , with the Union and CSA troops receiving the first batches of old, rashed up Enfields and having to pound on the ramrod with rocks to seat the early .577 Minie balls

This book?

 

[Stantheman86]

This book?
View attachment 141790View attachment 141790View attachment 141790View attachment 141790

That's it!

I screwed the name up going from memory. I have it sitting on my side table right now, I'd definitely read it again.

The author's viewpoints and research are not what you would expect and basically it seems, the Rifle-Musket was rarely if ever used as intended during the war and that the General of the US Army Ordnance Dept was right all along, that we should have just stayed with a caplock .69 Smoothbore for the "Rank and File" and rifled weapons should have been used for Skirmishers and Sharpshooters. Which basically ended up happening in some Divisions.

 

[fireman1]

That's it!

I screwed the name up going from memory. I have it sitting on my side table right now, I'd definitely read it again.

The author's viewpoints and research are not what you would expect and basically it seems, the Rifle-Musket was rarely if ever used as intended during the war and that the General of the US Army Ordnance Dept was right all along, that we should have just stayed with a caplock .69 Smoothbore for the "Rank and File" and rifled weapons should have been used for Skirmishers and Sharpshooters. Which basically ended up happening in some Divisions.

Interesting.....I might have to order that book tonight.

 

[Stantheman86]

Interesting.....I might have to order that book tonight.

It's fascinating. It basically debunked every idea that "rifles made the Civil War so much deadlier" that we have been taught our whole lives. My mind was blown

 

[frankie]

I think they are both great but my choice is the enfield. For me it is a better balance.

 

[fireman1]

It's fascinating. It basically debunked every idea that "rifles made the Civil War so much deadlier" that we have been taught our whole lives. My mind was blown

Interesting. I will order it tonight. Father day is coming.

 

[fireman1]

For a few years my Grail gun was a 2 band Enfield...specifically a PH made in England. I finally acquired one. It fit me horribly. I could barely get on the sights. It probably did not help that the front blade had been raised by a N-SSA shooter. Also, I had no idea about British vs American shooting style or sight pictures.

I sold that and a year or so later came upon a cheap Euro Arms 2 band Enfield. I asked the seller to put it side by side with his PH. It had a touch more drop. Fits me great.

All that to say, I might try the PH again and see it I can do better with it.

 

[Muley Gil]

Many of the Enfields the Union issued, recall they were all English imports, and were 'seconds' to begin with; the dealers in England rushed to sweep up large numbers and ship them to the US. Our National Armory and (22!) contractors turned out a good product.

The British had contractors that sold versions of the Enfield to volunteer rifle companies there in England. When the War of Northern Aggression started, the Confederacy sent buyers to England to obtain these arms, which usually marked as Towers. Enfield marked arms (those that were in current use) belonged to the Crown and were not sold to the USA or the CSA.

 

[DuncNZ]

The PH Musketoon and 2 Band have 1/48" twist barrels . I believe the 3 band came with either 1/48 or 1/72 twist , the only 1/72 twist I have seen had a checkered stock like Stan's one . In the land wars in New Zealand The 1853 used by the British Army had an iron nose cap , trigger guard and butt plate and was issued to Private soldiers , the 1858 also had iron furniture and was issued to Sergeants , the Musketoon was also iron mounted , and was used by mounted troops and Ranger's as well as mounted police . Most of the fighting was done in bush ( Jungle) covered mountainous terrain and the carbine came into its own in that environment . The brass mounted Enfield's and Lancaster variants were used mainly by the British Navy ( Marines)

The PH Enfield's are projectile sensitive , a RCBS .577 Minie with the base plug changed to a " frying pan " base and the nose modified by widening the grooves is/was the way to go . Don't ask me the measurements as I have sold all my PH rifles and kit 15years ago .

 

[user 34300]

https://dunlapwoodcrafts.com/military-stocks#18
Here is a possible source of a replacement Enfield stock that could be modified, guilt free.

 

[Stantheman86]

For a few years my Grail gun was a 2 band Enfield...specifically a PH made in England. I finally acquired one. It fit me horribly. I could barely get on the sights. It probably did not help that the front blade had been raised by a N-SSA shooter. Also, I had no idea about British vs American shooting style or sight pictures.

I sold that and a year or so later came upon a cheap Euro Arms 2 band Enfield. I asked the seller to put it side by side with his PH. It had a touch more drop. Fits me great.

All that to say, I might try the PH again and see it I can do better with it.

The square shooting stance and "half sighting " was a game changer for me

 

[Stantheman86]

The British had contractors that sold versions of the Enfield to volunteer rifle companies there in England. When the War of Northern Aggression started, the Confederacy sent buyers to England to obtain these arms, which usually marked as Towers. Enfield marked arms (those that were in current use) belonged to the Crown and were not sold to the USA or the CSA.

I think the Enfield- type rifles win the "Springfield vs Enfield " comparison in the World History and "deep diving of variants " categories because a person could probably spend a lifetime tracking down and researching all the variants , private contracts, etc

Plus the Enfield has all the cool Crimean War history, obscure, forgotten Arab wars, the Sepoy mutiny, and of course the Civil War.

 

[Stantheman86]

The PH Musketoon and 2 Band have 1/48" twist barrels . I believe the 3 band came with either 1/48 or 1/72 twist , the only 1/72 twist I have seen had a checkered stock like Stan's one . In the land wars in New Zealand The 1853 used by the British Army had an iron nose cap , trigger guard and butt plate and was issued to Private soldiers , the 1858 also had iron furniture and was issued to Sergeants , the Musketoon was also iron mounted , and was used by mounted troops and Ranger's as well as mounted police . Most of the fighting was done in bush ( Jungle) covered mountainous terrain and the carbine came into its own in that environment . The brass mounted Enfield's and Lancaster variants were used mainly by the British Navy ( Marines)

The PH Enfield's are projectile sensitive , a RCBS .577 Minie with the base plug changed to a " frying pan " base and the nose modified by widening the grooves is/was the way to go . Don't ask me the measurements as I have sold all my PH rifles and kit 15years ago .

I've seen Minies from a Parker-Hale mold , I'm assuming made for their Enfield rifles. I think they had the frying pan base.

That's really interesting, I didn't know there were 2 twists for the P-H P53's.

I'll have to shine a bright light down the bore and see if I can see the twist rate by eyeballing it and comparing it to my Musketoons