Has anybody had any thoughts about Brownells Acra-Gel to cover up mistakes. What would be the traditional way to fix deeper than needed gouges in the stock. I got a little happy with the chisels. I am a newbe with the Traditions Kits. I was hoping to learn from those before going any further.
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Epoxy
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It’s hard to take too much wood off a muzzleloader stock. If you look at an original, it will surprise you how slim they are.
Can you take the rest of the stock down to the gouged out areas?
Can you take the rest of the stock down to the gouged out areas?
I'd use epoxy before I'd take a chance on cutting through the stock. You can add content inside, but you can't add outside.
But the original long rifles had slender stocks. If you're comfortable with removing wood on the outside, go for it. I'm not...got a rifle that needs slimming down, but it's beyond my ability.
But the original long rifles had slender stocks. If you're comfortable with removing wood on the outside, go for it. I'm not...got a rifle that needs slimming down, but it's beyond my ability.
Col. Batguano
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The Traditions and the other entry level kits have way way way too much wood on them. Without pictures it's hard for us to render an opinion on whether your gouge indeed went so deep that the removal of additional wood wouldn't take it down to a more proper profile and dimension.
On my current build there was a nick (that came that way in the blank from the saw mill) that occurred right in the tang area that traversed right in to where the metal for the tang would be, and all the way across where my carving would be. When I inletted the tang, sure enough there was a big hole in the edge of it right up to the metal of the tang. Drats! What was I to do? . I thought sure I was somehow going to be just a scootch short of wood to so what I wanted to do in that area. So I smoothed out the saw nick, squared everything up, and put in a curly maple splice as tight as I could, so the glue line wouldn't be obnoxiously huge. Then I rasped and sanded the splice down to be even with the rest of the wood so I wouldn't have to worry about planning my breech area profiling and carving around a big hole in the wood, and potentially get a big case of the uggo's there. You know what happened after that? As I moved along in the build, and was removing wood from the tang area, and more metal off the tang to get the wrist nice and thin, I removed the entirety of the splice and material below it. All traces of the splice are now gone. Now you would never know a splice was ever there, because, in the finished product, it won't be.
If you do this same thing with your own boo-boo my guess is that once you actually get to the right degree of thinness for the gun, you'll be below where the boo boo happened.
P.S.; I also suggest using rasps like those 2-handled Japanese rasps for large amounts of material removal. They work more slowly, and are more work (everybody likes hammering things) but the controllability factor is far greater, especially for someone working on their first few builds.
On my current build there was a nick (that came that way in the blank from the saw mill) that occurred right in the tang area that traversed right in to where the metal for the tang would be, and all the way across where my carving would be. When I inletted the tang, sure enough there was a big hole in the edge of it right up to the metal of the tang. Drats! What was I to do? . I thought sure I was somehow going to be just a scootch short of wood to so what I wanted to do in that area. So I smoothed out the saw nick, squared everything up, and put in a curly maple splice as tight as I could, so the glue line wouldn't be obnoxiously huge. Then I rasped and sanded the splice down to be even with the rest of the wood so I wouldn't have to worry about planning my breech area profiling and carving around a big hole in the wood, and potentially get a big case of the uggo's there. You know what happened after that? As I moved along in the build, and was removing wood from the tang area, and more metal off the tang to get the wrist nice and thin, I removed the entirety of the splice and material below it. All traces of the splice are now gone. Now you would never know a splice was ever there, because, in the finished product, it won't be.
If you do this same thing with your own boo-boo my guess is that once you actually get to the right degree of thinness for the gun, you'll be below where the boo boo happened.
P.S.; I also suggest using rasps like those 2-handled Japanese rasps for large amounts of material removal. They work more slowly, and are more work (everybody likes hammering things) but the controllability factor is far greater, especially for someone working on their first few builds.
In the gun I'm building now, a dent the size of a thumbprint and about an eight of an inch deep was located in the butt stock area near where the toe and the buttplate meet. I saturated the dent with water, and placed a wet patch over the dent. Then I took a steam iron and steam heated the patch over the dent. I did this several times until the surface of the dent raised to the surface of the rest of the stock... This really worked for me. Good luck.
The trigger set was too high in the inlay,so I chiseled out some and it turned out to be too much. The Brownells acra-gel is smooth and thick. It does not run. I was just wondering about different brands of epoxy and also a more traditional method.
Col. Batguano
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So the boo boo was in the trigger group area? Wood splices are ALWAYS better looking (along with being HC/PC) than composite materials ones. At least the trigger plate area is about the least looked area of the gun. The toe plate isn't far behind.
The advantages to Acraglass (imho) is that the color can be adjusted to match the stock color, while other epoxy products you're stuck with their factory color, as well as for certain applications it is designed to take a sharp recoil in odd weather conditions. Now maybe JB Weld or PC-7 will do the same thing, but..., Acraglass is intended to bed the action on a modern, shoulder fired, firearm. It should hold in muzzle loading rifle applications, and so should also work in the same type firearms in areas under less stress too.
LD
LD
If your mistake is completely covered by the trigger plate (inlays or anything else) you can use any good quality epoxy even without coloring as it will never be seen and no one but you will know. It's also possible to color any epoxy to match without the need of ordering Brownell's. You can always go deeper and inlay a piece of wood but if it's unseen and in a Traditions kit I wouldn't bother myself. Modeling clay from the toy department makes a great dam to keep the epoxy where you want it till it cures.
If you plan to ever do another inletting, a stock inlet tool isn't horribly expensive and will remove wood for the barrel channel...although I don't know how it would work on an octagonal barrel. But round rasps would also be problematical as well.
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Some thoughts on Brownells Acra-Gel from many years of using it and a host of other "fiber glassing" materials on "unmentionable" and original and repro Muzzle Loading guns.
Brownells Acra-Gel is a good filler inside the stock where it won't be seen, but it is very, VERY difficult to hide on the outside of the stock, even when it and the stock are colored to match.
Brownells Acra-Gel is by far not the best epoxy to use to glue up cracks in wood as it wasn't designed to do that kind of a job and/or better epoxies are available. I used it when I shattered the wrist on my Brown Bess Carbine stock, BUT I "bedded" two brass threaded rods inside the wrist (around the tang screw) for strength. I used the Acra-Gel primarily as a filler and bonding material for those rods.
I have tried probably most types of epoxy to fix cracks in wood and Devcon Clear 2 Ton Epoxy is BY FAR my preference for that job most of the time, though I have used even stronger epoxies a few times. http://www.lurepartsonline.com/d30.jpg
PLEASE remember that if you want to mix a coloring agent into either Clear Epoxy or Brownells Acra-Gel or other types of "bedding compounds," you really should mix the two parts together thoroughly before you add the coloring agent. Adding the coloring agent before the two parts are mixed thoroughly can and will make the epoxy weak.
Gus
Brownells Acra-Gel is a good filler inside the stock where it won't be seen, but it is very, VERY difficult to hide on the outside of the stock, even when it and the stock are colored to match.
Brownells Acra-Gel is by far not the best epoxy to use to glue up cracks in wood as it wasn't designed to do that kind of a job and/or better epoxies are available. I used it when I shattered the wrist on my Brown Bess Carbine stock, BUT I "bedded" two brass threaded rods inside the wrist (around the tang screw) for strength. I used the Acra-Gel primarily as a filler and bonding material for those rods.
I have tried probably most types of epoxy to fix cracks in wood and Devcon Clear 2 Ton Epoxy is BY FAR my preference for that job most of the time, though I have used even stronger epoxies a few times. http://www.lurepartsonline.com/d30.jpg
PLEASE remember that if you want to mix a coloring agent into either Clear Epoxy or Brownells Acra-Gel or other types of "bedding compounds," you really should mix the two parts together thoroughly before you add the coloring agent. Adding the coloring agent before the two parts are mixed thoroughly can and will make the epoxy weak.
Gus
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Never use any fillers on the outside of a stock. It looks really bad and should never be done.
If you you need to fix a slip, try to glue it back right then. I keep CA glue and accelerator just for that. IF a chunk is missing try to harvest wood elsewhere on the stock. IF you must use other wood select something that matches the species and grain. Since the missing piece split off, split off your patch. Orient the growth rings the same. Flat off the patch and stock to make a perfect fit. Epoxy and clamp. Some advocate for other glues, to each his own. Anyway, when cured shape the patch to match the stock. Sometime you get lucky and a large patch will be hardly noticeable.
If you you need to fix a slip, try to glue it back right then. I keep CA glue and accelerator just for that. IF a chunk is missing try to harvest wood elsewhere on the stock. IF you must use other wood select something that matches the species and grain. Since the missing piece split off, split off your patch. Orient the growth rings the same. Flat off the patch and stock to make a perfect fit. Epoxy and clamp. Some advocate for other glues, to each his own. Anyway, when cured shape the patch to match the stock. Sometime you get lucky and a large patch will be hardly noticeable.
Most of the time if I want it thickened or darkened I use a stationary belt sander to put coarse sawdust in to the epoxy. Darker woods make it very dark. I bet that would make it stronger, like pykrete ice or fiberglass flock in epoxy, never tested it scientifically thoushg. To make it black I have some very fine black iron oxide that works good. I have never used colorants or dyes as such.
Boat repair places will have high end epoxy in larger quantities. For me, living near the ocean, that is my go to for better epoxy.
Boat repair places will have high end epoxy in larger quantities. For me, living near the ocean, that is my go to for better epoxy.
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Tinker2 said:
OK, but have to begin with the Caveat that I am not a chemist and here I am trying to explain a chemical reaction. So this probably is not going to be very pretty.... :haha:
Every manufacturer of epoxies and "Epoxy Bedding" or "Glass Bedding" Compounds has specified mix rates of the two parts of the epoxy, to ensure the glue or bedding compound correctly harden/cure. Today these mix rates are often 1 to 1, but not always, depending on what one uses. For example, Marine Tex is a ratio of 5 parts resin to one part catalyst, for example. The manufacturers set it up so there is a little wiggle room in the mix ratios, but not much. If one changes the mix ratio's, the epoxy or glue will come out either too hard or too soft.
Now when the two parts of the epoxy are mixed correctly together and in the correct ratios, they will set up correctly. However the introduction of some types of colorant agents, before the two parts are thoroughly mixed, will interfere with the reaction that causes the epoxy to cure harden. However, when the two parts of the epoxy are mixed correctly first, then coloring agents that will not affect the chemical reaction, may be added. Also, if one does not follow the manufacturer's recommendations and mixes coloring agents that are not recommended, it may/will affect the chemical reaction and cause the epoxy to be either too hard or soft.
BTW, this is from decades of empirical evidence of seeing mistakes made, from using all sorts of epoxies and epoxy bedding compounds.
Gus
Ok, that makes some sense to me.
I have not ever had trouble with epoxy like that but have not tried a lot of brands.
Acraglas I like and use, Acra-Gel I do not like and don’t use anymore.
For stains I use powdered stains, mostly carbon black.
That may be why I have not had trouble.
Thanks for your responds :hatsoff:
William Alexander
I have not ever had trouble with epoxy like that but have not tried a lot of brands.
Acraglas I like and use, Acra-Gel I do not like and don’t use anymore.
For stains I use powdered stains, mostly carbon black.
That may be why I have not had trouble.
Thanks for your responds :hatsoff:
William Alexander
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Tinker2 said:
Many of the powdered stains are inert or "earth based,"for a lack of a better term and will not affect many epoxy compounds.
BTW, when I mix very, very fine sawdust into clear epoxy, I also mix the two parts thoroughly before adding the sawdust. I've seen sawdust "suck up" some of the catalyst and cause problems, if not.
Gus
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