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Era of Tennessee rifle?

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54ball

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What is the correct time period for the " Tennessee Rifles " like the TN. Mountain Rifle by Dixie, The TN. Rifle by Tennessee Valley MuzzleLoading and the TN. and Early TN. from Track of the Wolf and others. Would the crescent butt be to early for 1813? :front: Was the common Tennessee style mentioned above be a more mid-century "1850" gun contemporary with the Hawken,Leman, and other plains type rifles?
 
1957-1997

Most of these examples are built for sales appeal rather than historic merit.

Each supplier offers a diferent style stock and different components. Then there is the "late style" and the "early style".

The tendency has been, in recient decades, that if no one could properly place a rifle in time or place it was called "southern influnce".

Southern builders, espically the backwoods blacksmiths in poor communities, used what they wanted too, when they had it, on whatever they were building at the time.

Some of it turned out good and some of it was hedious. You don't see most of the really baaaad stuf in the books!

The guns you are speaking of are mostly the guns of the poor mountain folk. They shot what was there, what they had or could get hold of cheaply.

The people of substance were shooting Leman and Derringer rifles and guns built in the latest style by urban builders. Very few of them would comission specially built iron mounted mountain rifles because they were associated with the poor folk.

When did they evolve? Probably as a general style of plain wood, medium bore, iron trimmed gun by the 1820s-1830s. The evolution started when the first blacksmith had to repair a rifle with scratch parts on the west side of the Smokey Mountains. The real miricle is that they never really fell out of use until the early 20th century.

:front:
 
They didn't fall out of use in the early 20th Century. They were still used as hunting guns because folks were poor and it was cheaper than buy cartridge guns. They were especially used during the depression to git game. Was told that in the '70s, a fellow showed up at Friendship with a pick-up bed load of them and you got what you wanted for about $20 a pop. He had scoured the mountains and bought them cheap. Times got better after WW II and cartridge guns were affordable.

BTW, the newest interpreter/builder of these guns are the House boys (Hershel, Frank & John).
 
Ghost, your condescension is showing. It is a popular misconception that Southern Appalachian Highlanders were poor, ignorant hillbillies of the Snuffy Smith mold. In fact, they lived far better than poor whites in many places in the deep south and far better than working class northerners, up until the War Between the States. They were a fiercely proud, free people who lived largely in isolation from the rest of the world and had little cash because they lived very self sufficient lives. The rifles made by the Gillespies and Bean and their contemporaries prior to the war often were as well made as any guns made in America. Like the Hawkin and Leman rifles of the same period, they were not made to be works of art, but pratical tools to be used for survival in a primitive enviroment. Few of them survived the war because the men went off to fight with what they had in the mountains and the Yankees destroyed Southern guns after the surrender. Times were very hard in the mountains after the war, and many rifles were made for poor people by blacksmiths as crudely and cheaply as they could be made. More affluent mountain folk could afford a Winchester or other factory gun, and by the early 1900's a shotgun or .22 rifle was far more effective for small game than a muzzle loader, so the long rifle died out.
I have tried to learn what the first rifles made in the mountains looked like--no one has shown me a "transition" from the longrifles of the piedmont to the mountain style rifles of 1820; we know such rifles had to be made, but not what they looked like. So I think no one knows when the first rifle resembling a Bean or Gillespie was made.
Is there any reason to believe that the first rifle made by a Gillespie in North Carolina in 1800 was much different from one he made the Shenandoah valley in 1780 or one his son made in 1830? I think there is much we don't know about Southern Mountain rifles, but to condemn them as inferior work done by ignorant hillbillies just for poor people is a bit of an insult, don't you think?
 
Not condescending, I grew up in the TN hills! Yep, they're intensley proud.

Yep there were very nice Bean Rifles, and Gilllespies, and some nice guns in the Soddy Daisey school. Some of them came out nice, some were hedious. Just because there were a few nice ones does not mean they were all examples of high art. Looking good often has little to do with shooting well.

Iron mounted rifles probably existed before 1800, but the form sold as the TN mountain rifle probably did not.

I agree that the rifles made early probably followed the forms learned as apprintices and followed the immigrants through the SW Virgina valleys into TN. After they got over the hills, well into TN, the forms changed and the patterns became set.

:hatsoff:
 
Would these be typical of the rifles carried by the Over Mountain Men who trekked to King's Mountain and defeated the Loyalists there? Sources I've read indicate these backwoodsmen from the Carolinas, Tennessee, and southwestern Virginia predominately carried rifles, not smoothbores, and I doubt they would be of a "Pennsylvania" style.
 
I recently talked with a gentleman who has published a series of books called "Notes on Southern Longrifles" that shows several of these fine, old weapons. His name is Jerry Noble. He contends that there is a long-standing debate over the manufacture of rifles in Tennessee before 1800. IMHO, it was a possibility that they were building rifles before they migrated south, so why would they stop? My kin, Joseph Bogle, was born in 1755 and died in 1811. The Bogle family moved to TN around 1784. Joseph built at least two signed rifles that are known to exist, and was known to have re-stocked a Bean rifle, so who's to say that he didn't learn the trade in PA, where he was from?

As far as iron furniture, I imagine back in the day they used whatever was easiest to get their hands on, and was affordable. I saw an original not too long ago that had a brass buttplate and trigger guard and iron thimbles.
 
Having a love for Southern rifles I have read this thread intently. I would like to throw a few things in for thought. :m2c:

Most of the commercially available Southern TN rifles of today (kit and semi-custom) are typical mid 1800 designs, minus the Siler lock and short tang. I'm not saying it wasn't possible for them to have them just they were not typical. Who knows what might have been cobbled together. And some of the guns mentioned above can be made to look like earlier styles. I'm answering to off the shelf Southern/TN guns built today mentioned above.

There is a gap for early Southern gunmakers. As has been pointed out makers like Joseph Bogle could have very easily been making guns in the South prior to 1800 but his rifles do not conform to the patterns offered today as Southern guns. His guns seem to have a very VA look to the stock buttshape. To make a good early Bean rifle one needs to have that high comb. Same with other early E.TN/Appalachia Mt. gun makers. An imaginary line drawn down the comb will point above the rifles breech or right at it a lot of the time. Diamond or Vee shaped stocks and forearms are common on these guns. How rifles jumped from PA and VA styles to the classic TN style I do not know. Why did they develope so much drop at the heel?

The battle of Kings Mt. was 1780? Seems a little early for what most consider to be the classic TN/Southern of today. IMHO guns carried would have been more VA and NC styled rifles.

To me the whole problem with Southern guns is the makers that migrated brought with them the knowledge to build a gun as they had been taught. Be that from VA or PA or NC. They did not suddenly build a Southern style gun because they moved into what is now TN. So if you are looking at a gun in a VA style how are you going to know if the maker made it in Virginia before he moved or TN after he moved? Others, I think, were forced into the gunsmithing business out of necessity. A blacksmith by trade who is talked into hammering and whittling out a serviceable weapon to repair or replace a damaged gun. He keeps doing that until he is building guns because there is a market for it in the isolated backwoods they live in. Albeit some of the most butt ugly guns ever seen probably fall in this category.

:imo:
 
Yep, we're intensly proud. I think there is more than just ruffled mountain feathers involved here, however. For example, is it fair to compare the "artistic" merit of a Gillespie made in 1830 to a Penn longrifle made in 1775? Wouldn't you agreee that by 1830 the piedmont NC builders and the Penn builders built mostly guady, over-decorated guns? Too many meaningless inlays, flashy brass patchboxes, and Grandma Moses engraving, all about as tasteful as a 58 Cadillac? Personally, I much prefer Shaker furniture and Southern Mountain or Hawkin guns to the Federal period, but that's a matter of taste. The point is that by the time the earliest surviving mountain rifles were built the beautiful guns of Haynes and Rupp were museum pieces, and many would agree that there was no real artistic merit in the flashy style which followed the golden age.
You assume that the first rifles built in the mountains followed the style of the rifles built in the Valley of Virginia or the NC piedmont or Western Penn, and you may very well be right, but there is no explanation why that style suddenly changed to a style which owes nothing to the rifles made in those places--a change occuring at about the same time in places which were widely seperated from one another and which almost certainly did not have much trade or intercourse with one another. Beans look an awful lot like Gillespies, and they share more with early Hawkins than they do with most rifles made in the East at the same time.
I think there is an interesting mystery in all this--my personal speculation is that the explanation is related to the fact that the Penn longrifle evolved from folks whose origins were mostly German, as did the Piedmont NC/Moravian style.
Regardless of the origins of the first gunsmiths in the mountains, their customers evolved mostly from the culture of Celts--Scots-Irish, lowland Scot, and English borderer, a culture with little interest in flashy decoration but a keen appreciation of the rifle as a tool of war and survival. My mountain grandfather would have considered carving and inlays downright effeminant, and I'll bet that's a product of Celtic roots.
 
. . . their customers evolved mostly from the culture of Celts--Scots-Irish, lowland Scot, and English borderer, a culture with little interest in flashy decoration but a keen appreciation of the rifle as a tool of war and survival.

dirk.jpg


You're talking about the savages that painted themselves blue and lived in sod huts . . . but still had the most fabulously ornamented swords and dirks?

3016ws.jpg


The people who have to have 150 unique and colorful tartans to identify their clans? The people who wait 25 years for a good whiskey to be ready?

They don't settle for less where it matters. They just have their priorities straight. ::
 
. . . their customers evolved mostly from the culture of Celts--Scots-Irish, lowland Scot, and English borderer, a culture with little interest in flashy decoration but a keen appreciation of the rifle as a tool of war and survival.

dirk.jpg


You're talking about the savages that painted themselves blue and lived in sod huts . . . but still had the most fabulously ornamented swords and dirks?

3016ws.jpg


The people who have to have 150 unique and colorful tartans to identify their clans? The people who wait 25 years for a good whiskey to be ready?

They don't settle for less where it matters. They just have their priorities straight. ::

That's us! :thumbsup: ::
 
Last year I was able to purchase a nice Southern mountain rifle, any premise that they had to be crude is false, they can be utalitarian, without being crude and I feel that this is a prime example. Take a look at the pictures if you have time, maybe you could help me with some background information on it for I surely am not an expert in these rifles. As for the basics, it's a 36 caliber, slightly swamped 43 octagon barrel, looks to be handforged judging by the bottom flats. Percussion lock, similar to the Warranted style, though I suppose it is possible that it was originally a flintlock. The buttstock does not have a buttplate nor do I beleive it ever had one. Triggerguard is iron.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/44-henry/ButtstockRight.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/44-henry/ButtstockLeft.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/44-henry/LockPanelLeft.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/44-henry/B.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/44-henry/RearSightCloseup.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/44-henry/SouthernRifle011.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/44-henry/Triggerguard.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/44-henry/lockmortise.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/44-henry/SouthernRifle010.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/44-henry/BarrelInlet.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/44-henry/BarrelLug.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/44-henry/TangBottomView.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/44-henry/TangInlet.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/44-henry/TangSideView.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/44-henry/TestHole.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/44-henry/ThimbleFrontView.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/44-henry/ThimbleSideView.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/44-henry/CENTERLINECLOSEUP.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/44-henry/DETAIL.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/44-henry/SETTRIGGERCLOSEUPLEFT.jpg

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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/44-henry/SETTRIGGERCLOSEUPRIGHT.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/44-henry/TRIGGERGUARDSIDEVIEW.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/44-henry/LockCloseup.jpg
 
I'm not talking about savages--I'm talking about people who preserved the written word and the Christian faith when the rest of Europe was sinking into the savagry of the dark ages, who never really learned to bow to Anglo-Saxon or Norman tyrants, and who gave the world the art of making fine whiskey while effete french were drinking wine and half-civilized Germans were drinking beer.
I am talking about poets who gave us the best part of our literature, and musicians who gave us music which will be rivaled only by heavenly choirs.
I'm taking about warriors who outfought their Roman and Germanic and Norman and Yankee enemies since the time of Ceasar, but still managed to lose far more wars than they won.
Seriously, I think that cultural patterns rooted far back in history continue to have important effects, even today.
If you want to read about this thesis, look for "Albion's Seed" by a fellow named Fisher, I believe, published about 1990.
 
David Hackett Fischer. If you want to understand America, you must read this book. Utterly fascinating. Plus, it's got lots of solid info useful to re-enactors.
 
Way off topic, but another "thumbs-up" for Albion's Seed. Excellent history and great writing.
 

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