eroded nipple effect on accuracy?

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

how much does an eroded nipple affect accuracy?
After experimenting with conicals I noticed the hammer blowing back. So I pulled the nipple and compared it to a new one. It was easy to see the difference.

Just curious how much this could affect the accuracy since I don't often see it discussed except in the context of long range muzzleloading.

 

[BEP]

I shoot an ArmiSport '61 Springfield, use it for target shooting. After 250 to 300 rounds I can see a definite growth in grouping; changing out the eroded nipple corrects that. If you are getting blowback so bad that the hammer is getting blown back ( I assume to half-cocked) it's definitely time. Not only will your accuracy improve but that gun will be a lot more pleasant to shoot.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Sneezy,

You are right on the money with this.
Good post!

Richard.

 

[Rifleman1776]

how much does an eroded nipple affect accuracy?
After experimenting with conicals I noticed the hammer blowing back. So I pulled the nipple and compared it to a new one. It was easy to see the difference.

Just curious how much this could affect the accuracy since I don't often see it discussed except in the context of long range muzzleloading.

Worn out nipple could be but one factor causing blow-back. Do replace the nipple with a 'hot shot' style. And, consider you may be overcharging your rifle. Tell us what it is and what your loads are. A conical is much heavier than a patched round ball and will increase pressures. Why do you use a conical?

 

[DarrinG]

I've also heard a weak hammer spring can allow hammer blowback. Maybe that's a possibility also.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I've also heard a weak hammer spring can allow hammer blowback. Maybe that's a possibility also.

Yeppers. Part of the "but one factor" thing I mentioned.

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

The gun is a Cabela's sporterized Hawken with a .45 barrel.

The bullet is from a Lee 456-220-1r mold which weighs 220 grains. Blow-back occurred with 3 powder charges 60, 70, & 80 grains of Swiss 2F.

The reason for switching was because my son had what he thought was a good round-ball hit on a deer last year but we never recovered it. Distance 70 yards or so. Usually the .45 round-balls dropped deer in their tracks but we thought maybe the penetration wasn't there.

This is a "new" experiment for me. I never shot conicals in this gun before, and the hammer never blew back with roundballs.

I intend to replace the nipple regardless. I am wondering about the effects on accuracy because the conical bullet produced groups ranging between 2.5" to 3" at 50 yards which I am not satisfied with. If an eroded nipple causes poor accuracy, I will try the conicals again to see if the groups can shrink to under 1.5 inches. Otherwise I will just write off the conical experiment as not worth bothering.

 

[Semisane]

Black Jaque, if you haven't already done so, try a felt wad or card wad under that Lee bullet. My .45 caliber Green Mountain barreled Renegade does "OK" with naked conicals but is outstanding when I put a 1/8" thick wool wad under the bullet.

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Does the felt wad reduce pressure?

I forgot to mention that I was putting a bit of corn grits between the powder charge and the bullet. Corn grits because that is what I had on hand. That would serve the same purpose as the felt no?

 

[Semisane]

I really don't know the impact of a wad on pressure. I suspect that if there is an impact it would be a slight increase in pressure due to a better seal behind the bullet.

I've never used grits or corn meal, so can't offer any info as to effectiveness. But I can tell you that, in my gun, a felt wad under the bullet cut group size in half and eliminated fliers.

This target is one of my best from a TC Renegade with a .45 caliber 1:30" twist Green Mountain barrel.

Here's the same bullet with ten more grains of powder.

 

[Rifleman1776]

The reason for switching was because my son had what he thought was a good round-ball hit on a deer last year but we never recovered it. Distance 70 yards or so. Usually the .45 round-balls dropped deer in their tracks but we thought maybe the penetration wasn't there.

No offense to your son, but a "good" hit will drop a whitetail with a .45 round ball. Bigger bullets, bigger calibers, bigger charges will not readily drop a deer if placement is not right. IMHO, the 'penetration' notion is overrated. A ball making it into the lights is deadly.

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

no offense taken. We're not certain what happened because we never recovered the deer in order to see where it was hit. So it could very well have been a poor hit.

The question is: is it a poor shot to hit the muscle mass and bone of the front shoulder? With a .54 I don't hesitate to put the ball into the boiler room through shoulder and bone if that is the only option presented. If I was bow-hunting however I would pass on such shots.

So we were thinking maybe a .45 ball is not up to the task of pushing through the muscle of the shoulder. Or maybe we are incorrect. Nonetheless it's not a big deal to experiment with .45 conicals.

 

[Rifleman1776]

So we were thinking maybe a .45 ball is not up to the task of pushing through the muscle of the shoulder. Or maybe we are incorrect. Nonetheless it's not a big deal to experiment with .45 conicals.

Can't say for certain on that one way or the other because I have never studied the wounds with that concern in mind. But, I do believe a .45 prb will do the job with shots under 100 yards on a whitetail. I'm in this avocation for the tradition. Use of conicals is, to me, a violation of that tradition.

 

[csitas]

I will comment here. I'm also a bowhunter of about 40 years.It was mentioned that as a bowhunter, you would have passed on the shot. If, a person maintained that kind of thinking, you'd never loose a deer from a bad hit. Double lung , they don't have much left. The larger the caliber and projectile can help with poor judgement but, is a poor cure.

 

[Artificer]

Hi Black Jaque,

Whenever pressure is increased in a percussion gun/rifle, the nipple will wear out faster and accuracy suffers.

For example, if you only shot light target loads with a patched round ball, the nipple would last the longest before needing replaced.

Up that to a patched round ball with heavy loads (more powder) and the nipple wears out faster because of more pressure on each shot.

Up that to a conical that is heavier than a round ball and the nipple wears out faster still. If heavy hunting loads are used (more powder) then the nipple will wear out even faster.

On rifles used for competition, I strongly suggest putting a new nipple on at the beginning of every year AND checking/recording the group size. That way one doesn't normally have to be concerned with the nipple going bad and accuracy loss that year.

For hunting rifles where many people don't shoot the gun much other than hunting, you can often go two or three years per nipple. However, I recommend shooting the rifle for a group each year to ensure the load is still accurate.

Also strongly recommend having at least one NEW spare nipple on hand at all times in case the nipple goes out sooner than expected. I consider that cheap insurance.

Now as to the old nipple/s you replace, I strongly recommend you throw them away as soon as your replace them, so they don't "find a way back onto" that gun/rifle or another gun/rifle.

Some folks use their old/worn out nipples with a rubber/plastic tube for cleaning and that's OK, but I then suggest you drill out the hole so it doesn't get confused with a good nipple. That or painting or marking it in some way, again so it doesn't get confused with a good nipple.

Gus

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

If, a person maintained that kind of thinking, you'd never loose a deer from a bad hit. Double lung , they don't have much left.

True enough. Except that if you are hunting during the Wisconsin gun season you only have 9-days (19 if you include the muzzleloader) to hunt. Wisconsin's archery season last 5 months - it is easy to pass up shots knowing you can try again the next weekend, and the next, and the next, and the next. . .

Rifleman,

I'm in this avocation for the tradition. Use of conicals is, to me, a violation of that tradition.

It may be so. And I feel much the same way. However, I introduce a number of people to muzzleloaders and I've learned that if I'm a stickler and a purist they will loose interest fast. Plus a $20 conical mold is a bit cheaper than a whole new larger-caliber ball shooter.

 

[morehops]

While I don't hunt with rb's let me give you an idea of their penetration abilities. A friend and I were shooting a Ruger OA at a scrub 4" sapling at about 25 yds. A .457 rb ahead of 35-40 gr 3F was barely held in the splintered backside of that sapling. I'm guessing that a deer shoulder is no more than 1' thick and a rifle is using 20-30 gr more powder. penetration , no problem prb or conical.

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

ok. So I feel a bit better thinking that it may have been a bad hit, not inadequate rb penetration. And the whole adventure with the conicals may have lead me to the discovery of the eroded nipple (which could help explain the bad hit). I may still try the conicals just to see if they can be made to work.

 

[Rifleman1776]

While I don't hunt with rb's let me give you an idea of their penetration abilities. A friend and I were shooting a Ruger OA at a scrub 4" sapling at about 25 yds. A .457 rb ahead of 35-40 gr 3F was barely held in the splintered backside of that sapling. I'm guessing that a deer shoulder is no more than 1' thick and a rifle is using 20-30 gr more powder. penetration , no problem prb or conical.

At one time my ROA was the only handgun I had and used it for home personal defense. My testing showed better, more destructive, results using a round ball with a larger charge than was possible using the bullet designed for the ROA.

 

[Zonie]

IMO, there's nothing wrong with trying conicals.

Shooting patched roundballs and bullets is kinda like shooting two totally different rifles of the same caliber and sights.

My big complaint with shooting the lead bullets is, like patched roundballs, your gun will have a definite like and dislike for different bullets.
That results in you needing to try several different styles with several different powder charges to find the one that works best and those lead bullets can be expensive.

Only after you find the bullet(s) your gun likes should you consider buying a bullet mold assuming one is made and only by casting your own bullets can you get the price per shot down to a reasonable amount.