Erratic Shooting

[kilbuck]

Initially I was very excited about the results of shooting patched .690 and .715 round balls in my 12-gauge shotgun. Shots were grouping 3" at 50 yards, close to the bull.

In subsequent trips to the target range I've been baffled as to why sometimes I don't even hit the paper. I'm using a beeswax/beargrease lube on the patch (different thickness for different ball diameter), and charging with 80-90 grains Fg.

Once when the shot flew off the target, I had left the charge in the gun for several days. But I've missed the target with a fresh load too.

The only clue I have is this: in all of these instances, the blown shot was always fired in a cleaned barrel that could have had solvent or oil. Sometimes, however, the first, clean barrel shot is dead on.

Any ideas what's causing the erratic performance? I always detonate at least two caps in the empty gun, prior to loading the first charge. Once the barrel is fouled (or the solvent/oil burned out?) after the first shot, things seem to settle down. Is this typical of smoothbores?

Obviously, I'm new at the smoothbore game. All input welcome. Thanks.

 

[Muskeg Stomper]

In subsequent trips to the target range I've been baffled as to why sometimes I don't even hit the paper. I'm using a beeswax/beargrease lube on the patch (different thickness for different ball diameter), and charging with 80-90 grains Fg.

The only clue I have is this: in all of these instances, the blown shot was always fired in a cleaned barrel that could have had solvent or oil. Sometimes, however, the first, clean barrel shot is dead on.

Just as with any muzzleloader, consistancy is the name of the game with your smoothbore.

For starters, I would recommend swabbing with an alcohol dampened patch before your first shot to remove any solvants, oils, etc.

Additionally, I would try sticking with one patch, ball and powder charge combination at a time until you can consitantly place your shots where you want them.

Lastly, is there a particular reason why you are using 1F as your powder? Seems to me that you would be better off with 2F which would burn slightly quicker.

 

[matt denison]

Eliminate variables.
Decide on one ball size/patch thickness/lube and shoot that only. Pay attention to the target and anylise from there. Do it more than once.

Ldog

 

[paulvallandigham]

You have to look for, find, and examine EVERY patch you fire, until you are absolutely sure that you have the right ball diameter, patch thickness, and lube combination for that barrel. You may end up with different products for the two barrels, and even different powder charges if you seek to have both balls strike near each other out to 50 yards. As others have said, you have to eliminate inconsistencies.

I also recommend flushing oils out with alcohol. Firing a couple of caps has never worked for me, either.

One " trick " I tried for the heck of it that is working in my fowler is to run a greased cleaning patch down the barrel( after flushing out the barrel with alcohol) to lube it before pouring in the first powder charge. The Chronograph tells me I am getting consistently faster velocities doing this than by shooting that first shot with an ungreased bore. The velocity increase is less than 50 feet per second, but its there. And, better yet, my Standard Deviation in velocity goes down to the low double digits.

You might also try using OP wads, or a filler between the powder and your PRB to act as a fire wall to protect those patches from burning. and provide a better seal against those gases when using Fg powder.

I found that using an op wad with my 2Fg powder caused a more complete burning, less residue, and the ease of cleaning I normally only expect to see if I use 3Fg powder instead. Velocity is increased with the OP wad, and the SDV is also lowered a Lot with both 2Fg and 3Fg powders. The velocity increase is further proof that the Op wads provide a better seal against those gases than just usiing a lubed patch around the ball, even in a smoothbore.

I use 2Fg in my smoothbores, because I don't like the patterns I get using comparable loads of 3Fg powder. I get fewer pellets in the patterns using 3Fg, compared to the patterns I get using 2Fg. Since my gun is a cylinder bore( no choke), I need all the pellets I shoot in that pattern to increase my chances of hitting flying birds.

Greasing the bore between shots also seems to eliminate the leading of the bore, from the pellets rubbing lead off on the sides of the barrel. I am also hoping, but have not found a way to test it, yet, that the greasing also allows the pellets to move without developing flats where they press against the bore. Since I am seeing more pellets in my pattern counts, I suspect the grease is having some of that effect. I have to shoot before and after patterns on paper, and use a magnifying glass to examine each of the hole to see if I can see evidence of a flat on the pellet.

 

[nkbj]

If the balls have large sprues...well, maybe the sprues could be another random factor either in the barrel or in the air. Someone (pure genius)on this forum wrote a while back about the practice of throwing a family sized pop bottle of balls in the bed of the pickup to roll down the sprues. Gonna have to drive the truck more often.

 

[PGTMG]

I am new at smoothbore as well and the above covered a lot to look at. I had similar experience as you early on. Mine went away with consistent loading habits.

1) I used the same force seating ball and components (marked the rod as reference).
2) Change only one variable at a time. Ball size wad whatever.
3) Most important kept track of it all changes in notebook and targets.

Smoothbores are a lot of work. IMHO they are not a passion but and insanity but worth it.
:v

 

[Tajue17]

I talked about this with Danny Caywood a little bit and even though it could be a few different things first thing he told me was to throw away anything thats not 'natural" that I use inside the barrel... we talked about the inside of a barrel become "seasoned" and when that happens you don't want to remove any of that seasoning if you want shot to shot consistancy and ease of loading.

seems pretty simple but it made sense.

as for me i noticed after 3 shots without cleaning my group goes a little haywire too so i run a slightly damp swab down the barrel every 2 shots then follow with a dry swab then i use the Mink Oil Patches or Bore buttered patches. also when I leave it loaded for a while after I load the gun I then take a swab thats lightly coated with Bore butter and run that down the barrel till it bumps the ball a couple times--> my first shot is usually the best shot out of the pair so I'll stick with this for hunting.

 

[dlpowell]

Being that your shooting a 12 ga. rb I'd bet your developing a flinch reaction to recoil.

Try this: Close your eyes and dry fire the gun. Open your eyese after you pull the trigger and see if your still lined up on your original mark.

My only remedy to this is practice, practice, practice.

Someone may have a better solution.

When I've had this problem it was usually a bad fitting stock or style of gun. I'd sell it and get something that fits.

GPRs don't work for me with that thin butt and I need more drop in the butt. Developed a flinch to higher velocity loads.

Built a early virginia rifle with a 2" wide butt and the flinch is gone. Also built a Dutch styled fowler with the same results.

That's my experience.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Since it's always the first shot that is bad I'd just skip that one and fire the second shot first. :haha:

 

[ozark57]

I have one of the strap to the shoulder recoil pads that trap shooters use. I always use it when bench resting for sight in. This will help you from subconsciously flinching when firing a hard recoiling gun. You mind will connect a certain gun with pain and you will be more likely to flinch. Bench shooting heavy loads hurts.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

B... I'd bet your developing a flinch reaction to recoil.

Try this: Close your eyes and dry fire the gun. Open your eyese after you pull the trigger and see if your still lined up on your original mark.

If flinching, a trick I was taught when I got my 1st flintlock ~3-years ago (now have !, but 1 not quite built) was to fill the pan with priming powdah and spark away and 'dry fire' but lighting off the pan. Worked for me to cure any potential to flinch and I shoot right-handed flintlocks and am left-handed.

To cure "1st shot wayward blues" I'll put a cleaning patch down, as others do, but then will put 30 or so grains down, throw that patch on top, and then fire it off as a ball-less 'shot' to foul the barrel. Works for me!

 

[Many Klatch]

Try using a spit patch and ball combination that is loose enough to short start with your fingers. I find that you just want to keep the ball from rattling out the barrel with the patch combination.

If you don't have a rear sight you need to figure out how to make sure your cheek and eye are locked into the same place each time you shoot.

Don't mess with too many combinations of ball and patch, you will just confuse yourself.

Many Klatch

 

[Stumpkiller]

With my Bess I threw 4" at 50 yards but just a few yards past that I suspected there was a "knuckle ball" factor that came along and caused some wild action on the backstop.

Try wiping the bore with 91% alcohol (isopropyl, stove or solvent alcohol) to chase out the oils before loading next time.

What thickness patch are you using? Try a thicker one (or doubled) for a tighter seal.

 

[Britsmoothy]

For elimination purposes if you have no rear sight one could use some play dough or bluetac to fashion a tempory test sight.

Brits.

 

[dlpowell]

Smoothie,

I got out of the shooting sports for over 20 years and upon returning had to relearn everything. Age = Body changes = extra weight = guns don't fit like they used to.

The flinch was a response to recoil not flint spark.

I have no trouble with "flint flinch". Don't even notice it.

The problem I had with commercially produced guns is I'd have to climb down onto it to line up the sights. When I have that problem it's gone, I don't care how much I like it.

I've found the earlier styled guns fit me better than the later plains guns.

Since I've built 2 of my own, I was able to fit the stock immediately to come to point with my eyes closed. With that accomplished, I have increased confidence in my ability with the firearm and am much more relaxed when I pull the trigger. I really need to get in more range time.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Not enough drop on a stock is my worst enemy when I choose a gun.
All my guns are chosen by fit or adjusteed to fit all in the name of shooting consistancy by me.

Brits.

 

[cptleo1]

I tried some one F Swiss in all my .62s (Rifles and smoothies) with very consistent results.

TERRIBLE !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[kilbuck]

Many thanks for all of your input on this topic. As soon as the weather cleans up, I will be sorting out the possible problems and going to the range.

The idea of cleaning the bore with alcohol sounds like a worthwhile one. In going back and studying an old target, I noticed that the only flyer happened in the middle of a string where I had cleaned the bore with solvent after the previous shot. Taking notes while shooting pays off.

I started using Fg at the suggestion of another smoothbore shooter. Prior to that I used FFg. The random flyer problem has arisen with both powders.

Patches: I've recovered a few and they looked okay - not torn up.

In reading the comments on consistency, I suspect another possibile explanation for the erratic flyer is an inconsistently lubed patch. Got to get something more uniform there.

The breech plug on this shotgun has a very useful shallow arch contour on its top side that makes an excellent rear sight.

Thanks again, guys, and good shooting.

 

[redwing]

Has the flash hole elongated? An out of round flash hole will cause flyers.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Two other recommendations for you.

First: Buy Dutch Schoultz's Black Powder Accuracy System, read it, re-read it, and read it again! It will give you a plan to follow as you work out loads to gain accuracy. Its the cheapest $15.00 you can spend.

Second: A 12 Gauge ball does give a lot of recoil, especially in a light, DB shotgun, no matter what load of powder you use. You didn't tell us what powder charge of either Fg or FFg you are using, so we can't give any guidance.

There is an article on "Controlling Heavy Recoiling Guns", in the member resources section, that can help you deal with recoil during bench rest testing of loads. There are also slip over recoil pads, made of " Sorbothane(sp?)", That you can buy that can fit over any gunstock you are shooting at a bench when working up loads, so that you reduce the felt recoil from all that shooting. Check Cabelas for the product. If you can't find it, send me a PT, and I will contact a friend who is selling them, and put you in touch with him.

If you are shooting more than 80 grains of any powder, you are asking too much of your senses with those heavy balls.

The fact that you say the balls shoot better groups when the barrel is a bit dirty tells me that you are not using the right diameter ball, and patch thickness combination. Certainly those .690 balls would normally required a very thick patch. However, if you use OP wads as your gas sealer/firewall, you may be able to get away using thinner patches. Nominal Bore diameter for any 12 gauge should be .729". ALWAYS measure the diameter of your barrel(s) to know EXACTLY what its bore diameter is.

That ball will weight between one ounce and one and one-eighth ounce. That is a lot of lead to be pushing out any barrel. ( 437.5 grains to the ounce). When shooting at game, its a freight car gone wild. Its not going to be stopped by anything made of flesh and bone. For that reason, you don't need to be sending it out the barrel at high velocities to kill anything. In a smoothbore, the most accurate of guns will only shoot well out to 100 yds, and most half of that. Its a close range hunting gun. Don't expect more of it and you won't be disappointed.

Paul