Exactly What Did They Mean?

[Zonie]

I have a question about the bore size of a rifle and I figure our panal of experts (you guys/gals) must know the answer. :grin:

As you know, in the Old Days, a rifles bore size was not spoken of in inches like it is today. It was measured in "Balls per Pound".
They would say things like "I want you to make it with a 38 ball barrel."

Now, here is the question:
When they said a 38 ball barrel (or whatever number they wanted), were they talking about a bore that would just accept a lead ball which would weigh 1/38th of a pound, or were they talking about the slightly larger bore that would shoot a patched ball which weighed 1/38th of a pound?

No hitting or pinching or biteing now, you hear?

zonie

 

When you order a 12 bore or 20 bore gun what do you expect to get?

That's your answer.

 

[Russianblood]

That's funny as I was just thinking that the other day when I read an original trader's receipt for trade gun and a pound(30)of balls. I figured out the diameter of a 1/30th pound ball of lead to be about .537 diameter. So I'm guessing by today's standards the gun would have been a 28 bore, which is theoretically 28 balls to the pound but the diameter of the ball at 28 to the pound would be .550 and a very tight fit, even bare, down the bore. :youcrazy:

 

[WV_Hillbilly]

Is this a TRUE or FALSE question? or multiple choice?

Man, I really must be in sorry shape to be looking for answers on Labour Day...

Wasn't this "measurement system" in common usage long before there were standards amoung tooling?
So using the number of lead balls to the pound as a way to "gauge" a gun's bore size; I would expect that a particular size bore was based on the actual inside diameter of the barrel--not on the diameter of the patched ball--well, at least in the case of smoothbores.

Now as to these new fangled rifled barrel guns...

For that matter, do we call a .50cal gun a .490 or .50? A shooter can use various undersized balls and different thickness of patches, yet when it "bumps up" to fill the grooves, the "packaged projectile". But, a full diamter (groove measurement) ball and thin patch will work in a rifled barrel... so I'd have to go with the gun's caliber being based on that full diameter measurement again.

I'm still looking through all the old books, reference materials, and such that I have. The man that could have told me has long since went to "his reward". I'm sure he HAD told me this at one point while he was living, but I've lost a lot of memorized information since my stroke.

Basically I'm just trying to use a wee bit of logic--if that even applies in this situation. I wouldn't want anyone to think that I actually know what I'm talking about. Especially after having a day off and trying to survive the aftermath of a huge family picnic with all sorts of food, drink, & merriment.

Tomorrow is going to come early...

 

[bob1961]

Man, I really must be in sorry shape to be looking for answers on Labour Day...

yeah but m/l is a labor of love ain't it............bob

 

[Many Klatch]

I think you are working too hard at the question. :hmm: When you ordered a "38 ball to the pound gun" the gunmaker furnished a mold to go with the new gun. As long as the buyer was able to get 38 balls out of pound of lead, using the mold that the maker gave him he should have been satisfied. :thumbsup:

 

[Henry]

My knowledge is limited to the French side
of the F&I war . And by the way , different
coutries had pounds of different weight , the heavier being the Danish one , followed by the French one ( 489 grams ) the British w / American
pound still is 453 grams ( 2.2 pounds = ± 1 kg)


The old 28 balls -to-the-french pound was
actually closer to the modern 20 guage .

When the order was given , the caliber of the gun was the exact size of the munition , wich mean that no one expected a "calibre 18 " ball to slide down
a " calibre 18 " barrel , at least not for more
than one or two shot. The difference of size was called the " vent " ( wind )
For one exemple , it took some time to correct
the official regulations about the 1733 pistol .
Colonels of cavalry regiments had already taken
action and ordered smaller size amunitions , quite some time before the official correction .

 

[Russianblood]

This is from "The Kentucky Rifle" by John G.W. Dillin;

[url] http://www.elyfamily.com/images/conversion.jpg[/url] (to view full size)

"The size of the roundball rifle is spoken of as so many balls per pound. A rifle which gauged, say, eighty to a pound, might use a ball 81, 82, 83, or 84 to a pound, depending on the thickness of the patch used with it, hence a nominal size of the bore meant only that of a ball fitting the bare bore, without a patch."
The chart was done with a micrometer by George Schalk, of Pottsville , Pa. 1824-1892.

(Information from Longknife)

 

I have pondered that question myself and altho none of my references directly answer the question, I have come to two conclusions.
1. The bore diameter was such as to handle a ball of the given guage.
2. Some of us have way too much time on our hands.

 

[grant]

You might need a good pint of strong ale after you read this but take a look at[url] http://members.aye.net/~bspen/math.html[/url]
"The Mathematical Shooter".

 

[Pittsburghunter]

I have read that it is balls per pound as well. So a 12 bore would have a ball that was 1/12th of a pound. Not sure if this is right but I read it on a box of 12gauge ammo.

 

[faw3]

What really throws me is reading a "fur trade book last night and the guy used a rifle on bear with a 1oz ball , had to stop and go find a Dixie cat log to find out the bore size :shake: then I read this :shocked2: forget it, tis that big , whatever size that is. :rotf: Fred :hatsoff:

 

[Pittsburghunter]

16 bore my friend. 16oz to a pound. lol, I guess :hmm:

 

[Pittsburghunter]

According to my RCBS scale 1oz=437g. that's a pretty big ball. must have been a big bore :grin:

 

[Henry]

I now for something completely different ,...
euh ... I mean for the english side .
Order from the British gov. 1627 :

" ... barrel forged and bored , fower foote in lenght the bore according to the bullet of 10 in the pownd standing and 12 rowling "

another fron 1638 :
"... with belts , swivells , wormes and skowrers
and arming the stock to be made up 2 foote 6 longe and of the bore of 24 bullets to the pound rowling"

So in England , both designations were used
" standing " and " rowling " :hmm:

 

[Pittsburghunter]

Does rowling mean patched?

 

[Stumpkiller]

There is some period reference to a "30 Hawken" that I remember one author took to mean a .30 caliber. 30 balls to the pound works out to a .54 caliber and makes a lot more sense to me.

Moulds were frequently marked in the number of balls per pound.

 

[Claude Mathis]

The Forum has a chart in the "Mambers Resources" section:
[url] http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/197045[/url]/

 

Does rowling mean patched?

No. I think it means rolling, in other words a ball diameter just small eonough to fit down the bore; standing would mean just large enough to not fit in the bore. In other words a description of a go no-go standard.