Experimental Muzzle-loading Percussion Rifle??

[tanegashima_remington]

Hi guys,

Here is a peculiar example of experimental muzzle-loading percussion rifle.



Unlike common muzzle-loaders, the gun has its percussion nipple in the center of its receiver end.


Another distinctive feature of the gun is grip safety lever on the upper tang.

We need to securely grasp the lever when pulling the trigger.
In order to avoid blowback of combustion gas from the percussion nipple, the hammer is locked in the forward position while the safety lever is held.

When disassembling the gun, the action-mechanism can be detached from the stock by unscrewing two knobs on each end of trigger-guard.


The barrel is secured to the stock with barrel bands. So, the barrel and the action can be detached from the stock without using any tools.

The gun’s rear sight is flip-type and has three sight leaves for different range.


The gun has a marking which can be read as “MORAV” or “MORAY” under the barrel and also a proof marking of “crown” and “M”.


When I bought this gun, they told me that the gun is Swiss made.
However, most Swiss guns don’t have crown proof marking on them, and now I have no idea where and by whom the gun was manufactured.
The gun is made in superb quality and looks like French made. Its buttstock has Tyrolean-type shoulder rest.

I hope someone has more information about the gun…??

 

[F.G. Ford]

Hi,
It certainly gives credit to the early foundation of an inline rifle??!! Or should I say an unmentionable.
It is an intriguing design, somewhat military by appearance.
Does not look to be American.
You would want to have your shooting glasses on to shoot that sucker!
Fred

 

[fleener]

Very neat rifle. What cal. and twist?

Fleener

 

[Bad Karma]

Beautiful piece. I’ll be watching the thread for any information the members can provide.

 

[poker]

Very nice piece there. Like Fred says, it’s an inline, probably someones prototype that didn’t make it to production. Back in the 80’s and 90’s there were lots of startups all trying to compete in the low priced arena. It took too much money to build the better designs, so they generally werent built or if they were, not for long.

 

[TFoley]

IBTL. NO Swiss arms use a crown as part of their proof marks. The use of a crown implies a 'royal' armoury or proof house. Switzerland has neither.

 

[cositrike]

Hi guys,

Here is a peculiar example of experimental muzzle-loading percussion rifle.
View attachment 24059
View attachment 24060

Unlike common muzzle-loaders, the gun has its percussion nipple in the center of its receiver end.
View attachment 24061

Another distinctive feature of the gun is grip safety lever on the upper tang.
View attachment 24063
We need to securely grasp the lever when pulling the trigger.
In order to avoid blowback of combustion gas from the percussion nipple, the hammer is locked in the forward position while the safety lever is held.

When disassembling the gun, the action-mechanism can be detached from the stock by unscrewing two knobs on each end of trigger-guard.
View attachment 24062

The barrel is secured to the stock with barrel bands. So, the barrel and the action can be detached from the stock without using any tools.

The gun’s rear sight is flip-type and has three sight leaves for different range.
View attachment 24064

The gun has a marking which can be read as “MORAV” or “MORAY” under the barrel and also a proof marking of “crown” and “M”.
View attachment 24065

When I bought this gun, they told me that the gun is Swiss made.
However, most Swiss guns don’t have crown proof marking on them, and now I have no idea where and by whom the gun was manufactured.
The gun is made in superb quality and looks like French made. Its buttstock has Tyrolean-type shoulder rest.

I hope someone has more information about the gun…??

J.B. Barrett (for the confederacy) built a similar rifle , using captured Hall breech loading barrels converted to muzzle loading

 

[Zonie]

I consider this rifle to be an "in-line". Discussions about in-line guns are prohibited in the forum rules so, I'm locking this thread.

 

[Zonie]

After several comments concerning this thread which pointed out that the gun appearently does fit into the time period the forum rules require, I have reconsidered my previous decision and reopened the thread for further discussion.

 

[cositrike]

J.B. Barrett (for the confederacy) built a similar rifle , using captured Hall breech loading barrels converted to muzzle loading

 

[tanegashima_remington]

Hi all,

Thank you for your interest in this gun.
I'm happy to hear that this topic is reopened.

The barrel of the gun is .51 Cal (13mm) bore with five grooves of rifling, equipped with a bayonet-lug. So, I too think it is experimentally manufactured for military use.

I found a website talking about "MORAY", a gunsmith in Belgium.

http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies m/a moray gb.htm

Belgian gunmakers usually stamped a "crown" and an initial of their company name, like the one found on this experimental rifle.

However, I'm still looking for definitive information supporting that this experimental gun was made by this Belgian gunsmith.

 

[tanegashima_remington]

I guess "MORAY D. LIEGE (1875-1887)" on the website would have made this experimental muzzle-loading rifle and exported it to Swiss for trial.
In the late 19th century, many guns made in Belgium were exported to Switzerland. We often find "crown+initial" stamps on these guns.
This experimental gun too has some features of Swiss military rifles. (e.g. Tyrolean-type stock).

 

[TFoley]

I guess I'm being particularly obtuse this morning, or maybe just plain stoopid, but I'm STILL looking for any connection whatsoever between this rifle and Switzerland - place that has shown itself quite capable itself of designing it's own firearms, or, in the case of the Vitali, adapting it for their needs.

 

[waarp8nt]

http://www.nramuseum.org/media/940944/proofmarks.pdf

^^^ The above link will take your directly to the NRA pdf file on proof marks. It may be handy to confirm the country of origin, however I have a pistol that was built in Belgium, but proofed in Birmingham, England. So, just because it was proofed in a specific country may not always mean that is the country of origin. However, in my opinion it certainly provides some historical value as to the travels of a particular weapon. I found the link useful enough to download it on my P.C. and my cell phone.

 

[Bad Karma]

Intriguing design, if the hammer was properly constructed with a deep recess in its face it should keep the shooter safe from cap fragments. Combined with the action of the grip safety, looks like a strong, safe design. You’re very fortunate to have found it. Do you plan to shoot it?

 

[user 34300]

Very interesting rifle! Amazing condition too. Maybe they were afraid to shoot it back then, as I would be today. I like to make oddball locks and mechanisms. The idea of the nipple in the breech plug as we see here is obvious. I never made one because of the safety issue of the nipple pointing at the shooters' eye. The danger is not just cap fragments but after wear the nipple blowing out. As military arm that could have been considered a fault. Making a shroud that enclosed the hammer and nipple would address that. I bet that was looked at too.

During this time period there was a huge explosion of patents. Coupled with a fascination regarding mechanical devices there was a huge number of firearms patents. During my college days I spent countless hours pouring through the US patent application books in the college library. A significant percentage of the patent applications were firearms related. It was a race to make a better mousetrap and make money. It was a tech explosion as we have today, but with mechanical things.

 

[Sinner]

Very interesting. Would most certainly be a faster ignition time than conventional drums/snails. I wonder if the hammer was an issue with sighting?

 

[Feltwad]

Have a centre fire sxs percussion Bentleys Patent 12 gauge cased ,built for faster ignition
Feltwad

 

[Rudyard]

I found the barrels of one at that friends house you took me to. C shaped hammers Seem to think an area maker .
Cheers Rudyard

 

[Feltwad]

Enclosed are a couple of images of my centre fire percussion 12 gauge shotgun .
Feltwad