F and I carbines

[Ranger 1755]

I am researching F and I carbines for a future build. It is documented that the 1744 carbine for horse, as modified in 1748 and the 1756 artillery carbine were in North America during the conflict. What I am looking for is primary source documentation to "rifled carbines" that is mentioned in Dewitt Baileys books and the Annotated and Illustrated Rogers Journal by Todish and Zaboly. Little is known about them. Please do not reply with conjecture, opinions or what you think they coulda woulda shoulda had. Thank you.

 

[Tumbledown]

Searching Rogers' Journal on Google Books, "rifle" does not appear. I would be very surprised if his units actually had them.

 

[Brokennock]

I am researching F and I carbines for a future build. It is documented that the 1744 carbine for horse, as modified in 1748 and the 1756 artillery carbine were in North America during the conflict. What I am looking for is primary source documentation to "rifled carbines" that is mentioned in Dewitt Baileys books and the Annotated and Illustrated Rogers Journal by Todish and Zaboly. Little is known about them. Please do not reply with conjecture, opinions or what you think they coulda woulda shoulda had. Thank you.

I would ask @dave_person

 

[Tumbledown]

This thread might have some good info.

 

[flconch53]

This thread might have some good info.

Again it is who are you trying to document. Regular armies had smoothbores. When you get off into militias it is very hard to document. I guess a Jager would be close.

 

[Rudyard]

Haveing made most of the carbines made up to the 1760 Elliot and a Royal Foresters. One old one a friend had was an original Dublin Castle it was rifled. De Witt couldn't reckon it but who when & why was a mystery this was years ago . A' shouldn't be 'that was. Most are sold years ago in the US but a 1760 Carbine & a Royal Forester remain with me & a Wm 111 Dragoon carbine I've made two they where good sellers but don't get to the US now I did F & I mostly but did any 'gig' going. My own musket was Just a much ' got up' Indian India Pattern poseing as a' Colonels private purchase' , Nobody picked it I wasn't a stitch counter . Dave Person does know his carbines. But don't be patronizing you do rather come across as self important .
Rudyard

 

[Ranger 1755]

Haveing made most of the carbines made up to the 1760 Elliot and a Royal Foresters. One old one a friend had was an original Dublin Castle it was rifled. De Witt couldn't reckon it but who when & why was a mystery this was years ago . A' shouldn't be 'that was. Most are sold years ago in the US but a 1760 Carbine & a Royal Forester remain with me & a Wm 111 Dragoon carbine I've made two they where good sellers but don't get to the US now I did F & I mostly but did any 'gig' going. My own musket was Just a much ' got up' Indian India Pattern poseing as a' Colonels private purchase' , Nobody picked it I wasn't a stitch counter . Dave Person does know his carbines. But don't be patronizing you do rather come across as self important .
Rudyard

Opinions vary, if you don't like mine keep scrolling.

 

[Commodore Swab]

I would be surprised if at the time 2 were the same.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I am researching F and I carbines for a future build. It is documented that the 1744 carbine for horse, as modified in 1748 and the 1756 artillery carbine were in North America during the conflict. What I am looking for is primary source documentation to "rifled carbines" that is mentioned in Dewitt Baileys books and the Annotated and Illustrated Rogers Journal by Todish and Zaboly. Little is known about them. Please do not reply with conjecture, opinions or what you think they coulda woulda shoulda had. Thank you.

Maryland was pretty well armed as colonies go, and had "carbines" as far back as the 17th century. This continued through the French & Indian War. What the difference is between a "short musket" and a "carbine" is not noted, but I'd think that a firelock that used musket ball, but was shorter than their "normal" might be the answer, as it's obvious from the inventories which show "carbine ball" that the calibers of the carbines were different than muskets.

ARCHIVES OF MAYLAND ONLINE

These are to Signify That I Thomas Smithsons Custody of Talbott County in the Province abovesd doe acknowledge to have in my Custody, these Severall armes & ammunition belonging to his Majesty & this Province Vizt

Forty six firelocks Muskets all fixt, one hand mortar, 2 Grannado pouches, 20 Granado Shells & 57 fuzees, one brass Lanthorne, one brass Compass, one horse Picker, one Prospect Glass, 1 Drum, 1 Trumpett, 1 Powder prover 2 pair of Lib. H. D. Drum heads, 7 Case of Pistolls

7 Carbines & belts, 2 pick axes & 2 Mattocks 5 Cartooch boxes & belts 5 baggonetts & belts, Plates, 4 Spikes & four Rings for Wheelbarrowes, 4 Steel Spades & Shovells, 2 barrells of musket balls, 2 ditto Carbine, 2 ditto Pistoll, a parcell of flints said to be 3460.

Wittness my hand this 5th day of Octobr 1697.



September 24, 1756.
Major Hyland brings in and delivers to M.r Speaker the follow-
ing Report Viz.t
By the Committee appointed by the Honble the house of Dele-
gates to Inspect the Arms and Ammunition and Accounts relating
thereto September 21.st 1756.
Your Committee having Inspected the Arms and Ammunition in
the City of Annapolis do find that there are in the Possession of the
Armourer the following Arms and Ammunition …,


Seventy nine Pistols, in good Order, eight Pistols the Locks very much out of Repair, one hundred and thirty five Carbines in good order, Sixteen good broad Swords, fourteen Carbines, locks out of repair…, And your Committee find that Since the Last Session
there has been Returned to the Armourer the following Arms Viz From the Town Company Twenty five Musquets, twelve new Carbines, four old Ditto…,

there appears to have been delivered as follows Viz.t …, To Fort Frederick, Nineteen new fire Locks, Bayonets, Cartouch boxes and Slings fifteen new Carbines, five old Ditto, twelve Carbine bayonets, nine Slings…, Case of Pistols, one box of flints, eight half Barrels of Gunpowder, Six hundred and Sixteen weight of Musquet Ball, two hundred and fifty five pounds of Swan Shot Two hundred Sixty eight pounds of Carbine ball,



By the Committee appointed by the honble House of Delegates to
Inspect into the State and Condition of the Arms and Ammunition
and Accounts relating thereto. October 24,th 1763

…, Above the Conference Chamber
85 Black hilted Swords, 42 Bright ditto. 15 Cutlasses. 35 Pistols
one New Drum & one Old ditto. 200 New Bayonets with Cartouch
Boxes & Bullet Molds.
90 Buff Belts

29 Old Bayonets

86 fire Locks Short Muskets & Carbines

68 old Muskets and Carbines some without Locks and many with Broken Locks…,
30 Blue Cases for Muskets, 10 listed Cases for Carbines, 5 half Pikes, 15 pair Drum Sticks, 11 New Carbine Slings, 7 New Cartouch Boxes, 9 Old Belts for Muskets 2 Cw.t Gun Powder 1/4 Cw.t of Musket Ball and great Shot

LD

 

[Tumbledown]

Maryland was pretty well armed as colonies go, and had "carbines" as far back as the 17th century. This continued through the French & Indian War. What the difference is between a "short musket" and a "carbine" is not noted, but I'd think that a firelock that used musket ball, but was shorter than their "normal" might be the answer, as it's obvious from the inventories which show "carbine ball" that the calibers of the carbines were different than muskets.

ARCHIVES OF MAYLAND ONLINE

These are to Signify That I Thomas Smithsons Custody of Talbott County in the Province abovesd doe acknowledge to have in my Custody, these Severall armes & ammunition belonging to his Majesty & this Province Vizt

Forty six firelocks Muskets all fixt, one hand mortar, 2 Grannado pouches, 20 Granado Shells & 57 fuzees, one brass Lanthorne, one brass Compass, one horse Picker, one Prospect Glass, 1 Drum, 1 Trumpett, 1 Powder prover 2 pair of Lib. H. D. Drum heads, 7 Case of Pistolls

7 Carbines & belts, 2 pick axes & 2 Mattocks 5 Cartooch boxes & belts 5 baggonetts & belts, Plates, 4 Spikes & four Rings for Wheelbarrowes, 4 Steel Spades & Shovells, 2 barrells of musket balls, 2 ditto Carbine, 2 ditto Pistoll, a parcell of flints said to be 3460.

Wittness my hand this 5th day of Octobr 1697.



September 24, 1756.
Major Hyland brings in and delivers to M.r Speaker the follow-
ing Report Viz.t
By the Committee appointed by the Honble the house of Dele-
gates to Inspect the Arms and Ammunition and Accounts relating
thereto September 21.st 1756.
Your Committee having Inspected the Arms and Ammunition in
the City of Annapolis do find that there are in the Possession of the
Armourer the following Arms and Ammunition …,


Seventy nine Pistols, in good Order, eight Pistols the Locks very much out of Repair, one hundred and thirty five Carbines in good order, Sixteen good broad Swords, fourteen Carbines, locks out of repair…, And your Committee find that Since the Last Session
there has been Returned to the Armourer the following Arms Viz From the Town Company Twenty five Musquets, twelve new Carbines, four old Ditto…,

there appears to have been delivered as follows Viz.t …, To Fort Frederick, Nineteen new fire Locks, Bayonets, Cartouch boxes and Slings fifteen new Carbines, five old Ditto, twelve Carbine bayonets, nine Slings…, Case of Pistols, one box of flints, eight half Barrels of Gunpowder, Six hundred and Sixteen weight of Musquet Ball, two hundred and fifty five pounds of Swan Shot Two hundred Sixty eight pounds of Carbine ball,



By the Committee appointed by the honble House of Delegates to
Inspect into the State and Condition of the Arms and Ammunition
and Accounts relating thereto. October 24,th 1763

…, Above the Conference Chamber
85 Black hilted Swords, 42 Bright ditto. 15 Cutlasses. 35 Pistols
one New Drum & one Old ditto. 200 New Bayonets with Cartouch
Boxes & Bullet Molds.
90 Buff Belts

29 Old Bayonets

86 fire Locks Short Muskets & Carbines

68 old Muskets and Carbines some without Locks and many with Broken Locks…,
30 Blue Cases for Muskets, 10 listed Cases for Carbines, 5 half Pikes, 15 pair Drum Sticks, 11 New Carbine Slings, 7 New Cartouch Boxes, 9 Old Belts for Muskets 2 Cw.t Gun Powder 1/4 Cw.t of Musket Ball and great Shot

LD

Were any of these rifled?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Were any of these rifled?

Your guess is as good as mine, but I would seriously doubt they were rifled. They were probably smaller bore, lighter, and a few inches shorter than a Queen Anne or King's 1st Model musket. Maryland had "Rangers" patrolling the Potamack River (Potomac) on both sides, looking for stray cattle, from the second half of the 17th century on, and this is why I think this colony had such guns. Because the Rangers were mounted is the reason for my conjecture about the carbines. Were they military surplus from Britain, or contracted and bought from vendors, is another guess.

OH and let me add that I don't think the carbines in the last of the quotes if any, were the British 1756 carbine by any means. The newest firelocks of any sort went to Regular units, not Provincials in the colonies. So they could even have been old Dutch carbines, or something bought in Europe in a smaller caliber than .75 and the Marylanders called them "carbines" due to the smaller bore.

LD

 

[PathfinderNC]

Interesting that I just built a “British Officer’s rifled carbine” with parts from The Rifle Shop (sold in 1996).
Oddly, there was no such beast produced by the Crown. Possibly a “private purchase” model option that The Rifle Shop offered temporarily.
I know this helps you in absolutely no way, though. But Good luck with your inquiry

 

[Sam squanch]

These rifled carbines were rifled after their sale out of military service. A faster loading smoothbore was the order of the day, military organizations weren’t going to mess with a hard loading rifle when the combat was heavy. Until we get a Time Machine, we won’t know.

 

[rich pierce]

My understanding is that many carbines were designed for mounted troops and had a special arrangement instead of a side plate to attach to a belt. They were not just short guns. As such, rifling a gun to be fired from horseback might be to no advantage.

 

[Rudyard]

These rifled carbines were rifled after their sale out of military service. A faster loading smoothbore was the order of the day, military organizations weren’t going to mess with a hard loading rifle when the combat was heavy. Until we get a Time Machine, we won’t know.

Dear Sam Govt Carbine s went by the bore 16 bore they might go to 42"brls but still 'Carbines' lengths.if usually in the 37" range to later 21" in Much later cases & could be musket or' reduced musket If bore ' ie12 bore Most intended for 'Horse' mounted Dragoons and such like troops . The FME who suggest I keep trolling .Bubbles to him. There was a gentleman very much into Rodgers Rangers did arkeological searches on Rodgers Island and reports on off cuts of barrel ends. He wrote for Scurlocks' Muzzleloader Magazine ' About 1990 or so I could look up his articles I kept most copies If you where interested Ide dig them out ( The ignoramus can go fiddle ) There was Some Goram's Rangers . But the film made Rodgers the favorite. Regards Rudyard

 

[FlinterNick]

I am researching F and I carbines for a future build. It is documented that the 1744 carbine for horse, as modified in 1748 and the 1756 artillery carbine were in North America during the conflict. What I am looking for is primary source documentation to "rifled carbines" that is mentioned in Dewitt Baileys books and the Annotated and Illustrated Rogers Journal by Todish and Zaboly. Little is known about them. Please do not reply with conjecture, opinions or what you think they coulda woulda shoulda had. Thank you.

There is not much physical evidence of rifled carbines in the french and Indian war. Abercrombie did order a few hundred rifled carbines, however there are no actual specimens in existence.

However, a lot is know about rifled weapons that existed during the greater Seven Years War in Europe. The french had a rifled cavalry carbine (was also smoothbore). Many British fusils were filed, such as Twig officers fusils, and possibly others.

The British 1744 cavalry carbine was issued with and without a saddle bar, the removal of the saddle bar was done ad hoc for auxiliaries and dismounted dragoons. I believe I did read somewhere rangers did carry a few of these pattern carbines.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The problem with the "Ranger Island Barrel Pieces" is that A) they no longer exists, having been lost B) The Long Land Pattern muskets were being shortened by 4" by that time, but there is no way to know if any of the found pieces came off of LLP King's Muskets C) Shortening a King's musket more than 4" was a complete "no no" at the time, no matter what some authors have suggested (20th century mental bias) as the muskets were the King's property, D) Rangers were enlisted with their own muskets/fowlers at the time, PLUS Rogers contracted out to have muskets made in the colonies, and these were not considered King's property, and it's more likely that IF muskets were shortened it would've been from civilian pieces or some of Rogers' contract muskets.

LD

 

[rich pierce]

The problem with the "Ranger Island Barrel Pieces" is that A) they no longer exists, having been lost B) The Long Land Pattern muskets were being shortened by 4" by that time, but there is no way to know if any of the found pieces came off of LLP King's Muskets C) Shortening a King's musket more than 4" was a complete "no no" at the time, no matter what some authors have suggested (20th century mental bias) as the muskets were the King's property, D) Rangers were enlisted with their own muskets/fowlers at the time, PLUS Rogers contracted out to have muskets made in the colonies, and these were not considered King's property, and it's more likely that IF muskets were shortened it would've been from civilian pieces or some of Rogers' contract muskets.

LD

Oh, you’re going against all the wishful thinking and confirmation bias! 1) We want our shorter guns to be authentic; 2) Somebody said they found some short pipes near where Roger’s Rangers once camped; so OF COURSE THEY MUTILATED THE KING’S ARMS.

That conjecture has been around since the 1970s and over 50 years it’s become gospel for some.

In the 1960s and 70’s folks were coming over to black powder from centerfire where the magazine writers used to go on and on about “brush-busting carbines” for deer. It was drilled into our heads that long guns were a hindrance. There’s still a fascination with carbines.

 

[FlinterNick]

Oh, you’re going against all the wishful thinking and confirmation bias! 1) We want our shorter guns to be authentic; 2) Somebody said they found some short pipes near where Roger’s Rangers once camped; so OF COURSE THEY MUTILATED THE KING’S ARMS.

That conjecture has been around since the 1970s and over 50 years it’s become gospel for some.

In the 1960s and 70’s folks were coming over to black powder from centerfire where the magazine writers used to go on and on about “brush-busting carbines” for deer. It was drilled into our heads that long guns were a hindrance. There’s still a fascination with carbines.

The quasi “Ranger Bess” pattern gun always makes me laugh… but… it’s a great selling point, calling something a ranger bess and people are drawn to it as a must have item. I’ve actually seen more cut down Charleville’s and French Muskets than I’ve seen cut down original Long Lands. When you think about it, all you have to do is shorting the forearm, bring the band down and put the spring in and shorten the rod and barrel of course, much more complicated with a Bess.

But nobody likes the term…Ranger Charllie, it just doesn’t sound right.

 

[azmntman]

BTW (by the whey) there was NOTHING (Nuttin) wrong or snobbish in the OP's post. Chose yer targets well and know yer (you're) back stop.