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FAB. ARMI F.LLI PIETTA GUSSAGO BS ITALY

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Today I purchased from a fellow a double barreled percussion cap shotgun for no other reason then it seemed a decent price. The metal has some rust on it, but in general seems in decent working order. I have no idea of the age. He purchased it used and has had it for twenty years. He has never fired it. It came with no instructions of firing, cleaning, etc.

Markings are as follows from what these bad eyes could read:

FAB. ARMI F.LLI PIETTA GUSSAGO BS ITALY

NAVY ARMS CO. RIDGEFIELD N.J.

BLACK POWDER ONLY - MADE IN ITALY 12 GA

I have a variety of questions. I did a search and didn't find out anything specific to this from the 300 hits. Granted I didn't look at ALL of them. So if this is covered in another thread my apologies and would someone please point me in the proper direction.

1. Have you heard of this shotgun?
2. Where can one find instructions on loading, cleaning, etc? It almost looks as though the barrel can be removed by knocking out a pin as on a Colt (Replica) revolver.
3. Any tips on cleaning off the rust spots?
4. Suggestions on cleaning up the gun in general?
5. Any suggestions on replacing the seemingly plastic butt plate?
6. Where does one get loose shot?
7. A method it would have been carried in the Civil War era?

I'm a BP revolver guy and have never owned a weapon like this and have always purchased new. So I haven't a clue about any of this. It may just become a mantel gun, but I still want to understand it's workings. I may also use it in Federal reenacting.

All constructive advice will be appreciated.
 
Its a double barrel, percussion shotgun sold through Navy Arms many years ago. It can be 10, 12, or 20 gauge. You will have to remove the barrel and check the metric measurements on the bottom to determine what the Factory thinks it is, or use an inside caliper to measure the bores. It may have choked muzzles, but probably not, being that old. These are generally good BP shotguns and can be shot using reasonable loads.

Go to Bob Spenser's Black Powder Notebook site,
[url] http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html[/url]

and read his articles on loading ML shotguns. Ther e is his article, and then another article at the bottom of the second column of the index, by V.M. Starr. With that information you should have a good start on loading the gun. Don't over load a shotgun. unlike rifles and pistols you don't have a " hunting load", and a separate "target load " for a shotgun. Shotguns shoot one load well, in BP, and that is what you should use both for clay target practice, and for hunting. Only changing the size of the shot to match the game you hunt should be considered when going into the field with these. The heavier shot pellets carry their energy better, and further, than the lighter sizes. The number of pellets that hit a target at a given range is dependent on the pattern you achieve. The pellet energy of every pellet that strikes the game determines if you are going to bring the animal to bag.

In choked barreled shotgun, you can increase the total pellet energy hitting an animal by increasing the tightness of the choke, and using smaller sized shot. With a cylinder bore gun, you need to increase the pellet size, and to the extent possible without creating too much recoil, increase the number of pellets by loading a heavier load of shot.

Removing rust. Depends on how much rust. If you have specks of rust, over the barrel, for instance, you can coat the barrel and rust spots with a good motor oil, then dip 4O steel wool into the oil and light burnish off the flowers of rust. If you have a large patch of rust, like someone put their thumbprint on the metal, you might use a product like Naval Jelly to remove the loose rust. Then use 40 wool to polish the surface, before rebrowning, or rebluing it.

To clean it, remove the nipples with a properly sized nipple wrench. One you already have for your revolvers, or pistols may do the job. Try it. If not, you will have to order one, or buy one at a ML supply store. I put the nipples in a glass of tepid water, with some soap in the water, to help break down any crud, and dried out oil. When I finish cleaning the shotgun, I use an old toothbrush to clean the nipples, rinse them, dry them, oil them, use a pipe cleaner to clean out the holes and threads in the drum or breech for the nipples, and then thread the nipples back into the barrel or action, as the last thing I do, tightening them down with a wrench, snugly.before wiping the entire gun free of fingerprints and oils with a clean cloth and a good alcohol based solvent. I wax the stock to help it remain waterproof, and rub my barrels down with Wonderlube. I am currently trying out ballistol as a preservative inside the barrel and it seems to be working well, in both shotguns, and my rifle. I store the gun muzzle down, so that oil does not run out the flashchannels and into the nipples, where it either congeals, or drops down into the wood stock, where it weakens the wood.

As for cleaning the barrels, get a good ramrod- I like a separate range rod, with a good cleaning jag, that fits, and lots of cleaning patches. I take the barrel out of my gun, and put it in a pail of warm water, with dishsoap in it. I put a wet cleaning patch with more liquid detergent on the jag, and run it down the barrel, and pump it back and forth so that water from the pail is pulled up into the barrel and then pushed out under pressure from pushing down on the jag and cleaning patch. This pressure washes the corners at the Breech end of the gunbarrel, while the soap and water removes residue from the inside of the barrels. The water get very dirty, very quickly. I do both barrels before changing the water to rinse the barrels. I use a new clean patch, and pump rinse water through both barrels. You will find that some graphite will remain in the pores of the barrel even after the scrubbing with soap and water.

After the rinse, I examine the barrels by holding the breech end near a light, so that light comes into the back of each barrel through the flashchannel. I am looking for remaining crud, and any lead deposits which will be silvery streaks in the barrel now that the BP residue has largely been removed. Use a bore brush and lead solvent to remove the streaks of lead, if they are present. This will take some time and muscle to scrape and dissolve the lead off the bore. Now, flush the lead debris out of the barrel in your rinse water, and dry the barrel again with fresh dry patches. Check to see that you have gotten all the lead out.

Now, you can oil or lube the bores for storing. Remember to use a cleaning patch with alcohol on it, to remove and grease or oil used for protecting the bore from rust before heading to the range or field the next time.

Check all screws to make sure they are firmly in place. Oil hinges, or moving parts. Wipe the back of the barrels down to remove and BP fouling, and debris. Remove the locks and check it for fouling being present. Use cleaning patches, or that toothbrush to get any residue out of the inside of the lock. Check screws. Then oil the moving parts and replace the locks carefully into the stock mortises. I coat the wood on the inside of the lock mortise with stock finish to keep the wood dry and clean. I also do the same under the tang mortise, and the barrel channels. I don't want water getting into the wood stock at all. Don't tighten the screws down tighter than where they were when you opened and removed the locks to clean. In fact, mark where the screwslots point with " witness " marks carefully scrathed into the wood or metal next to the screws, so that you can return the screws to the same position when you finish cleaning and oiling the locks. One of the more common complaints seen here, and everywhere else comes from shooters who tighten screws to much, and prevent their locks from cocking fullyk, or otherwise functioning properly.

I am not fond of the factory supplied ramrod that comes with the gun, Rarely are these rods made of the proper wood, the ferrules are glued on but not pinned, and the wood shows runout in its grains. I buy my hickory rod stock by picking out the wood personally, looking for straight rods, and rods that show NO runout of the grain. Runout is where the rod will break under pressure. I buy my own ferrules, and install them myself, pinning them to the rod with brazing rod pins, and glue.

When Yu know what gauge the shotgun is, and whether either of the barrels is choked, let us know, and we can give you specific suggestions for loads, and equipment you will need. Please give us the bore diameters in thousandths of an inch( .XXX") so that we can advise you exactly which wads and loading components you want for the gun.

Paul V.
 
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Pietta used to make a decent double gun similar to the shotguns Pedersoli makes now. They may still make them for sale in other markets, but I haven't seen them here for a while. I would think any normal load would be safe as these guns were pretty robust and the ones I am familiar with were nicely finished.
To carry one as they were carried during the Civil War would require a sling of some sort. Shotguns were a favorite arm of irregular cavalry units and were very effective.
 
I've got one. They came in kit and pre-assembled. Mine's a kit, for sure. On mine, the barrels can be removed by tapping out the barrel wedge, than lifting the barrels out. It's just a hook breach. Your search results are typical. I bought mine used and tried to look up some info, too. There is very little on the gun itself. I ended up using the loading data for shotguns out of the back of the DGW catalog. That worked for me. Definitely watch out for the ramrod. My ferrule wasn't pinned and came off. Once you figure it out, and it won't take long, you'll have a blast shooting it!
 
Paul has given you just about all the info you need except for load info, that you will have to work up yourself once you determine the bore size. I had a Navy Arms double several years ago and it was called the "Magnum". It was a robust shotgun and was very well made. I also had another 12 ga. double and it was quite a bit lighter, I think it was made by Pedersoli; I sold it to a buddy who took a turkey with it the following year.
 
Thank you very much for all the useful information. :hatsoff:

If there is anymore, please keep it coming. My printer just ran out of ink, of course :cursing: , so I will print this all off at a later time, but will probably start with disassembly. Oh and the biggest rust spot on the barrel is along the lines of the thumb print.
 
I had a Navy Arms Pietta .12 ga double for years. Shot a lot of ducks, geese, quail,doves, and especially Jack Rabbits with it. I used 90 grs of Pyro. RS, a Win. AA white plastic shot cup,1 1/4 oz of shot and an overshot card. For steel shot loads for waterfowl same load but with a Ballistic Products Multi Metal heavy plastic shotcup.
 
I bought a used one last year. Had it converted to flintlock. Got a little work left to do to it, but it was a relatively inexpensive (
 
Jas. Cox said:
Thank you very much for all the useful information. :hatsoff:

If there is anymore, please keep it coming. My printer just ran out of ink, of course :cursing: , so I will print this all off at a later time, but will probably start with disassembly. Oh and the biggest rust spot on the barrel is along the lines of the thumb print.

Mr. Cox: As soon as you can tell us the bore size, we can begin giving you your best loading suggestions to try. That should reduce the amount of time you devote to load development, by a bunch, as well as save you money on the wads you need to buy.

I have become a huge proponent of Range Rods, in the past few years, as my experience with them has grown, and my observations of all the trouble other shooters are still having using factory supplied rods. I remove the factory rod, and the ramrod pipes off my CVA shotgun, because the rod was so worthless. Instead, I carry my range rod in the field, now. I have thought about pre-measuring shot and powder charges for the gun, for field use, but I like the traditional idea of carrying a powder horn, shot pouch and measure( Irish) and my wads and patches in my bag, with a minimum of gear. Bag limits are so limited that I don't need to provide to carry a lot of game back to the car in any one hunt.

I am wanting to try Jim Rackham's one card ONLY system, using only OS cards to replace the OP WAD, and the cushion wad in loading shotguns. For muzzle choked shotguns, his system seems to be about the only way to go, and get consistent gas seals and velocities. Jim posted a significant amount of information on this forum this past year about this technique, and then posted pictures of his hunting successes this past Fall using the system in his Mike Brooks built Fowler. For me, the pictures of his successes pushed me over the edge, even though I have been working up loads using OP wads, and now 1/2 or 1/3 cushion wads, etc.
 
I just use two or three cards between the powder and shot. If it's cornflake box thickness I'll put four in. This saturday I'll be shooting pheasant and woodcock with 1 1/4oz no 7s (I thinck more like your 61/2)2-3 cards on top of 75grn equiv of pyrodex. :thumbsup:
 
I have removed the barrel and what I see on the bottom is:

KG1.830 18. 3 [mark] PN AN [mark]

18. 3 [mark] PN [mark]

Forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't the 12 GA on top of the barrel mean it's a 12 gauge? Looking down the barrels I see nothing that would indicate a choked barrel.

The seller gave me a box of thick plugs and thin plugs when I purchased this for $100 (the gun and the plugs).

I don't hunt, so hunting is not an issue here. Knowing how to properly use it, clean it, maintain it is important however, even if it never goes hunting. I would like to use it for reenacting purposes and especially for pre 1840s (although I normally do civil war) so I find the the converting to a flintlock appealing.

In any event, does this new information on the bottom of the barrels mean anything to anybody? Is it a 12 gauge? If so what would the powder load size be?

Oh and the nipple wrench I use for my pistols worked fine on this gun for the person that mentioned this previously.
 
1830kg is it's service proof in cm squared. 18.3mm is the diameter of the rod they could get down the tubes so a european 12g @ approx .719". And last AN is the year of make of 1985 :hatsoff:
 
Ok, it is still a .12 ga, those other marks are proof marks as stated. Those things you called thick and thin Plugs are the Wads. Put in about 70 grs of powder, 2f or 3f, about 4 of those Thin wads, then a 70-80 gr equiv. measure of shot, and another thin wad. Put a cap on the nipple and fire away.
 
I agree with Rebel's recommendation, but would suggest using 2 OS cards( These are slick backed cards made from the same material as shirt backs, the cardboard inserts you find in New dress shirts. Theya re .010" thick, if you have a micrometer, or caliper to measure them) Also, use an awl, or fine pointed nail to poke a hole off-center in each of the cards, so that air can escape. Just don't line two cards up with the holes aligned when you insert them in the barrel. You need the air to escape out of the holes, so it does blow by the edge, and ruin the sealing capability of the cardwad. The Thicker wads are either 1/8" thick, usually Brown, Over Powder Wads, and 1/2" thick cushion wads. The cushion wads can either be "dry " cuttings out of celotex, the same material used in housing construction, or can be Prelubed, and gray or black in color. You would have to tell us which of these " plugs " as you call them, you have.

I use a 2 3/4 dram load( 76 grains) of FFFg powder, and a 1 1/8" oz load of #8 shot for target work. I use the 2 3/4 dram powder load and 1 1/4 Oz. load of #5 plated shot for hunting.

You still have not indicated what the bore diameters are in thousandths of an inch, nor have you told us if either barrel is choked( constricted right behind the muzzle, and angled back about one inch where it becomes true .729" bore diameter. A full choke can be .715" or even tighter.

Navy Arms sold a good product, and I am not expecting to see any 12 gauge gun with its name on it being out of dimension. I suspect that you will have a true 12 gauge shotgun, and not an 11 gauge, or 13 gauge. My reason for asking you to measure the exact bore dimension is so we could better advise you about how to deal with those choked bores, if you have them, and tell you what kind of patterns you might be expecting. Just because the seller gave you a box of stuff, including " plugs ", does not mean they are the correct size, or that he ever shot the gun.
 
paulvallandigham said:
..... The Thicker wads are either 1/8" thick, usually Brown, Over Powder Wads, and 1/2" thick cushion wads. The cushion wads can either be "dry " cuttings out of celotex, the same material used in housing construction, or can be Prelubed, and gray or black in color. You would have to tell us which of these " plugs " as you call them, you have.


You still have not indicated what the bore diameters are in thousandths of an inch, nor have you told us if either barrel is choked( constricted right behind the muzzle, and angled back about one inch where it becomes true .729" bore diameter. A full choke can be .715" or even tighter.

.... Just because the seller gave you a box of stuff, including " plugs ", does not mean they are the correct size, or that he ever shot the gun.

I do not have a micrometer or caliper to measure the exact bore dimensions. My father-in-law does, but it will be awhile before I can make it over there and the weather is a little better. I did say I didn't think the barrel is choked because it looks to me to be one continuous dimension all the way down the barrel.

The previous owner NEVER did fire this weapon according to him, which is why after twenty years he was getting rid of it.

The wads he gave me with the gun:

Box 1.
500 Fibre Wads 12 GA
Circle Fly Shotgun Wads

They have a fibrous composite look about them, tan, rounded on top, then flat, looking somewhat like a muffin. They are approximately 1/2 tall. Maybe 3/4 inch wide.

Box 2:
100 125 Card 12 GA
Circle Fly Shotgun Wads

They have a pressed cardboard look like the cardboard one would find in a new shirt only thicker. Approximately 1/8 inch tall. Maybe 3/4 inch wide.

Looking at what someone sent me from Dixie Gun Works:

The proper sequence for loading a muzzleloading shotgun is as follows:

1. black powder
2. over-powder (heavy card) wad
3. fiber cushion wad
4. optional shot (thin card) wad
5. shot
6. over-shot wad

Recommended loads are as follows: 20 gauge -- 65 grains of FFG black powder and 1 ounce of shot, 12 gauge -- 75 grains of FFG black powder and 1 1/8 ounces of shot, and 10 gauge -- 85 grains of FFG black powder and 1 1/4 ounces of shot. Dixie stocks all of the wads needed in assorted gauges. Muzzleloading shotguns can be loaded with patched round balls as well as shot. We recommend using a .600 round ball for the 20 gauge, a .715 round ball for the 12 gauge and a .760 round ball for the 10 gauge.
 
Again, assuming that the bore dimension bear out the 12 gauge markings, and the muzzles are not choked in either barrel, you are heading in the right direction. Box #1 are the cushion wads I was describing. Now we understand what both of us are saying. Box #2 are the OP wads, that are 1/8" thick.

Traditional loading, as set forth in the Dixie Gun Works catalogue is to put the OP wad( box #2) over the powder charge( 75 grains FFFg powder). Then the cushion wad( Box #1) is lubricated, with any liquid vegetable oil, olive oil, peanut oil, or any other mix of water soluable oil and water, and detergent, often called " Moose milk" in Dixie's writings and by folks here, which is then put down the barrel on top of the OP Wad. Then the shot is poured in the barrel( 1 1/8 oz of shot, followed by an Over Shot Card, which is what you don't have yet. They can be bought from many suppliers, and from Circle Fly, directly. See the " Links " section here at the top of the Index page, under member services. It will link you to addresses and phone numbers and email addresses for many of these companies, and suppliers. If you want to see the actual wads pictured, so you know what I am telling you is correct, go to the Track of The Wolf website, and take a look in their catalog. Search for shotgun wads, and it will take you to the pages with all the various gauge wads they carry. If you scroll down enough, you will see pictures of the wads, and cards.

The OS card, which you don't yet have, is the one I describe as being a thin( 1/10") hard, slick cardboard made from the same stock that shirtbacks come from.

Now, several members here have noticed that if you use that whole 1/2" thick cushion wad( Box 2) lubricated, it weighs so much that it follows the shot charge out of the barrel, and actually bumps the back of the shot, causing the center pellets to begin to separate, and produce " donut hole " patterns. To cure that, several remedies have been proposed, and work. The easiest is to use one cushion wad, and split it in half after you lube it, and put one half in each of your barrels.

Jim Rackham's system substitutes the OS cards for the two wads you now have.

I have added an additional " trick " by running a heavily lubed cleaning patch down the barrel on the jag when I seat the OS cards on top of the shot. This lubes the entire barrel, and allows the shot to slide over the greased bore, rather than rubbing lead streaks off on the bore, which cause subsequent patterns to become more ragged, and thinner. Jim's way of putting a dab of lube under the 4th OS Card he puts on top of the Powder lubes the barrel to keep the residue soft, but does not protect the barrel from lead streaks, and prevents flats to the outside pellets.Those flats cause the pellets to lose velocity fast, and drop out of the pattern. I don't see much point in firing an ounce of shot at a target or bird, if only 50% of the shot is actually going to make it to the target! My method also keeps the residue soft for easy cleaning.

The point of all this is that there are several ways to load a ML shotgun, and the method shown in Dixie's catalogue is just one. Try these different techniques on a Patterning board, with newspaper, or wrapping paper, or butcher paper, so you can record patterns, and count pellets. Then you can deside which is the best load, and combination of powders, shot, and wads to get the best patterns in your gun.

Above all else, remember that with a cylinder bore shotgun, the way to get tighter patterns is to reduce the powder charge; NOT increase it. You can add more shot to increase pellet count, and this may be necessary when you change your shot from something like #8 to something like #5. Even increasing the size of shot you use from #6 to #5 will require a 1/4 to 3/8 oz increase in shot to get the same pellet count using the larger shot size instead of the smaller. But it is the weight of the pellet that carries energy to the target down range, and kills birds.

With smaller shot, you need more pellets on target, and that was accomplished by using either heavier loads of shot, or by choking the gun barrels. Since your barrels have no choke, your choice to improve the power of the load of shot at any distance is limited to choose a large shot size.

Shot is measured using the " RULE OF 17 ". Take the assigned number of the shot you use, and subtract it from the number " 17 ", and that will give you the diameter of the shot pellet with that size number. For instance, #1 shot is .16" in diameter. #8 shot is .09" in diameter. #6 shot is .11" in diameter. The smaller the number of shot, the larger the diameter of the pellet. Burckshot then is measured differently. Steel BB shot is .18", and is different than the BBs used in air rifles, which only measure .177" That .003" difference doesn't sound like much, but the smaller BB is much harder, and will ruin a shotgun barrel if used in a shotgun, and the barrels of those air rifles are usually made of brass tubing, and the larger Steel BBs, will ruin those barrels. Steel BBB is .19"; T shot is .20" #4 Buckshot is .24"; #3 Buck is .25"; #2 Buck is .28"; #1 Buck is .30"; O Buck is .32"; OO Buck is .33"; and OOO Buck is .35-.36" depending on manufacturer.

You gun is not designed to shoot Steel Shot. If they ever get the newest Non-toxic shot available for reloaders, we might have a good substitute other than Bismuth to use in ML shotguns to hunt Geese and ducks. Since you aren't interested in hunting, this won't cause you much grief.

Have fun with that new, " Old " shotgun.
 
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