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fast ROT, ff vs fff?

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sickle hocks

36 Cal.
Joined
Oct 16, 2011
Messages
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I have a .50 cal 1:34 ROT barrel. It may be an uphill battle, but my goal is to find a PRB load that will be heavy enough for deer at 50 yards, (maybe 75???)
I'm going to start with .49 ball, .015 factory made patches and 50 grains and work up, hoping to get to 75.
Is it correct to think that I will have a better chance with 2FF powder than 3FFF, when it comes to getting a heavier charge without overstripping the fast rifling and losing accuracy? Because it burns slower and gives a less abrupt push?
Would I just end up with less 'power' in the ball at the muzzle from the 2FF load?
Thank you so much, apologies for all the newbie questions...
 
Depends on the gun for sure, but I bet you can do it with a tight patch. If you stick with the .015's you may have to go up to a .495 ball, or with the .490 ball you might need .018 or .020 patches.

As for powders, I've gone as high as 80 grains of 3f with tight patches. That's plenty hot enough for 100 yard deer, trajectory-wise. For 50 yard shooting you could certainly do fine with less, both for trajectory and killing. How much less? There's the argument. In 54 cal my wife uses 60 grains of 3f and just knocks the snot out of deer at her self-imposed 50 yard limit. I bet it would do fine further, but who knows?
 
Unless you know the actual bore diameter of your rifle, you are just guessing on what might work well, both as to ball diameter, and patch thickness, as well as powder charges.

Please, NOTE that everyone here speaks about ball diameter to a thousandth of an inch- NOT a hundredth as your post here does. A ".49" diameter ball tells us nothing. Do you mean and actual .490" diameter ball, or any .49 caliber ball? I have tried both commercial .490" and .490" swaged balls in my barrel, as well as several different sized CAST balls between .490" and .500". My Actual Bore diameter is .501"

Same problem with patches. We measure them to the Thousandth of an inch, not a hundredth, because the coarser measurement doesn't tell you much.

I have tried, .010", .012", .015", .017", .018", and .020" thick cotton ticking patches in my rifle over the years. Technically, the first 4 would all be .01" thick patching. Please trust me when I assure you that those thousandths of an inch MAKE A DIFFERENT in PERFORMANCE. And, once you find a fabric that seems to seal well, then you have to find a lubricant for that patch that works in your rifle. I have seen groups- good groups--- shrink to half the size when I changed lubes. It scares the heck out of when it happens, because you just thought that you had gotten a patch lube combination that works and gives 'hunting size groups". When you see that group shrink in half, and then shoot another group, and another, and they all are much smaller than what you were getting before changing the lube, You start to rethink everything you have done with that gun from the day you bought, or built it, until this date of discovery.

Anytime you change loading components and either see better groups, or worse, you begin checking everything again.

For instance, I bought some new pre-cut patches, marked the correct size, but then I began using them, they went down the barrel noticeably easier. After a 3-shot group was very disappointing, I stopped, and measure the new patch fabric. It was Not the thickness marked on the package- but was several thousandths of an inch thinner! :cursing:

Years ago, I switched brands of commercial swaged balls I was using, and found out they were not as well sorted or sized as the ones I had been using. The only way I could know that was by measuring the diameters of the remaining balls, with my micrometer, measuring the diameter in several different locations of the ball. I was shocked to find out how out-of-round the new box of lead balls were, when compared to my old "brand."

Most recently, at the insistence of my brother, I tried shooting my rifle using an OP wad made of vegetable fiber. Several changes were immediately noted. The groups were smaller, but higher on the target from my POA.

The most significant change was how much cleaner my barrel was, shooting 2Fg powder. The residue "grit" was smaller- on par with that left when shooting 3Fg powder---- and there was so much less powder residue in my barrel- noted by looking at my cleaning patches. Its apparent that the OP wad is providing a much better gas seal, and was allowing a more complete burning of the coarser 2Fg powder than when I used the same powder with just a PRB.

This is why you will find us telling you to change ONLY ONE THING in your loading procedure at a time. You question asks us to speculate on your bore diameter- which you don't know and don't give to us. Then you want opinions on ball diameter and Patch thickness, and choice of Powder! YIPES!

If we know the exact bore diameter, and groove diameter, and Groove Depth of your gun, the barrel length, how thick the barrel is ( across the flats), we can give you a recommendation on WHERE TO BEGIN in testing loads. IN fast ROT barrels, the GENERAL rule( always exceptions) is that you need a very tight fitting Ball/Patch,Bore combination. The Grooves tend to be more shallow in the fast ROT barrels, as they are designed to shoot bullets, NOT PRBS. Using an OP wad between the powder charge and the PRB will often help improve accuracy dramatically, shooting the PRB, and also allow you to shoot heavy powder charges without fear of burning your patch. The OP wad acts like a Firewall, allowing you to use a larger diameter ball, but a thinner patch in those shallow grooves.

With any barrel under 28" I would normally recommend working with 3Fg powder, so that you can get that PRB up to velocity faster in the shorter barrel. But, 3Fg burns hotter, and that is where using an OP wad seems to be prudent, too.

The hotter powder is more likely to burn that thin patch, which simply cannot hold enough lube to keep from burning. Use the "Firewall" of a OP wad, fillers, or even folded cleaning patches pushed down the barrel in front of the PRB, to prevent the burning of the patch.

As to how much powder to use, you need to do penetration tests at various distances, with different powder charges to learn how effective a PRB IS as a deer rifle projectile. Then let recoil, and accuracy, tell you when enough is enough. :shocked2: :hmm: :thumbsup: :v
 
i believe you that a thousandth is important...my typing was lazy, the ball i'm going to try is .490 commercial brand. I can borrow a mic. and see how consistent they are. Patches commercial .015, looking for some slightly thicker to try.

Working assumption is that the barrell is .500

Since this is going to be a bit of a trial and error process I'm guessing that seeing what the gun likes is ultimately going to be more important to me than knowing the actual value of bore diameter..which must be a real nuisance to measure.

Where I'm at in Canada, it's hard to get black powder (can't just mail order from the states)...when the local dealers get some in I would like to by a bunch to last me for a while....so I'm really wondering whether I should grab a bunch of FF or FFF for this application?

Paul, was the vegetable fibre wad a processed material or something made at home??

oops sorry paul, i posted at the same time as your second post there...

thanks,
murray
 
sickle hocks said:
Since this is going to be a bit of a trial and error process I'm guessing that seeing what the gun likes is ultimately going to be more important to me than knowing the actual value of bore diameter..which must be a real nuisance to measure.

Where I'm at in Canada, it's hard to get black powder (can't just mail order from the states)...when the local dealers get some in I would like to by a bunch to last me for a while....so I'm really wondering whether I should grab a bunch of FF or FFF for this application?

That's it. Only the gun knows what it will like, and you'll never know till you give it a chance to speak for itself.

There can be so much variation between fabric lots, commercial round ball lots, and even molds that every time you buy new, you have to do a little testing. I bought 18 yards of ticking last time, mostly because I didn't want to devote a particle of sweat to searching out exactly the same thickness after using up a yard.

As for powders, grab both as you can. Your "best" load with one might only be 5% better than the best with the other, both still useable.
 
Ok, that all makes sense. Just to clarify, I'm just looking for a starting place to begin experimenting, not asking for the magic formula for the right load.

I'll get FFF powder for the short barrel, thanks.. I'll get started shooting and just change one variable at a time. Maybe I'll need to get the bore and rifling depth measured.

thanks..
 
Thanks, i like the idea of buying patch material in bulk.
The kind of shooting i'm likely to be doing, a 5% diff. in accuracy won't make much difference, i think... Operator error is going to throw a lot more variability into it then that...
 
sickle hocks said:
Operator error is going to throw a lot more variability into it then that...

That's certainly true for me. My 62 rifle will often fall well below 2" at 50 yards with its favorite 3f load at the bench, but is yet to find a 2f load that will break 3" at 50. Immaterial, because I'm not packing a benchrest into the woods or shooting targets so small that it matters.
 
I seriously don't believe a .015 patch will give you acceptable accuracy here but one never knows I guess. I would think a thick, over .020 patch is in order here though.
 
If you have a fast twist barrel why not try some lead conicals? I have a fast twist barrel in .50 and it is very accurate using the 250 grain Lee REAL bullet and 85 grains of 3f Goex. Just FYI, both my 50 caliber barrels, fast and slow twist are more accurate using 3f rather than 2f, but my .54 is the opposite. The addition of a lubed "Wonder Wad" improves the accuracy of lead conicals in my 50 cal fast twist and may help yours as well. 50 grains is a good starting load.
sickle hocks said:
I have a .50 cal 1:34 ROT barrel. It may be an uphill battle, but my goal is to find a PRB load that will be heavy enough for deer at 50 yards, (maybe 75???)
I'm going to start with .49 ball, .015 factory made patches and 50 grains and work up, hoping to get to 75.
Is it correct to think that I will have a better chance with 2FF powder than 3FFF, when it comes to getting a heavier charge without overstripping the fast rifling and losing accuracy? Because it burns slower and gives a less abrupt push?
Would I just end up with less 'power' in the ball at the muzzle from the 2FF load?
Thank you so much, apologies for all the newbie questions...
 
I am in Canada too. If you live close enough to the border to drive across once in a while, you can order black from a US supplier & have it shipped to a US mail drop close to the border. You drive across, pick it up & bring it back. You'll have to pay duty, but the savings are fantastic. Better yet, order it so you can pick it up on your way back from a US stay, and save duty by making it part of your personal exemption. It is all legal.

Paul
 
I have some GM 1/28 twist .50 flintlock barrels. One is 24" long and I have used .495 ball .017 patch and 80 grains of Goex 3F and it was plently accurate in that barrel. I tried the same load in my 28" long barrel that is exactly the same except it's 4" longer and I couldn't keep it on paper @ 50 yards. It slung them left, up, down and right. It had no consistancy at all.

The 24" barrel loved em though. I guess you just have to try it. I never will use it to hunt with as I have the GM .50 1/70 twist to shoot ball in. The fast twists are sighted for conicals and some unmentionables.
 
Obviously, the two barrels are NOT THE SAME. Have you read your spent patches for the longer barrel? What do they tell you?

I bet that you have torn patches, and the prime candidate will be the crown of the muzzle. That is the usual source of the problems when you don't even put balls on paper at 50 yards from a new barrel.

Find someone close who has more experience than you do shooting mlers and ask them to help you at the range to figure out what the problem is, and then fix it. If you can recover your spent patches, post pictures of them on this forum, we can read them for you, and guide you long distance. :grin: :v :thumbsup:
 
Yes Paul they are the same barrels but are just a different length. I never really persued the cause of why one shoots ball well and the other didn't with the same load. It could be many things and I don't intend to shoot ball from these barrels anyway. You should spend more time actually reading peoples posts Paul and if I need your help I will direct my posts toward your response. :idunno:
 
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