For anyone considering an Indian manufactured Flintlock

[sturmkatze]

We’re all farby at some point
I’m less farby then thou is an attitude that just drives people away from the sport
You should be proud of your guns
But don’t look down your nose at others

Exactly so!

 

[sturmkatze]

If some want an Indian gun with a little elbow grease put into it why not?

Because some folks want to criticize and need someone to sneer at. Like in any hobby.

 

[sturmkatze]

Not trying to speak for someone else but the point he was making that if he doesn’t know he asks, he doesn’t just throw conjecture and assumptions out there like …. A regular person coudln't pick out an original Bess from a line up of 10 Indian repro’s.

Also exactly. What I like about Dave Persons and yourself, is that you are willing and try to help others. That is one of the best parts of the hobby.

 

[sturmkatze]

Also, I have the instructions a friend gave me on how to make a 1728 India gun more accurate. He did an excellent job on his.

maybe sharing those would help someone. That kind of thing is great for the hobby.

 

[FlinterNick]

OK, so Italy and India are both lacking. What we need is an effort from...CHINA!

maybe sharing those would help someone. That kind of thing is great for the hobby.

A 1728 French musket is actually a rather easy kit to build.

For all of the work and effort put into defarbing and Indian gun you might as well invest in the real thing. Shaping the barrel flats (which i would not do) stock shaping, barrel band cutting and welding, lock defarbing… you’re looking at 60-80 hours of research and work.

There are also plenty of sources for parts on making a kind of marine greandiers fusil which is a slightly slimmer 1728 using an L&R tulle lock.

Many folks think defarbs are the cheap easy and efficient way out… however good luck finding someone to do it for you now, i. Know many in the muzzle loading communizing have stopped that work completely. I won’t do it anymore, complete waste of money and time.

 

[sturmkatze]

Many folks think defarbs are the cheap easy and efficient way out… however good luck finding someone to do it for you now, i. Know many in the muzzle loading communizing have stopped that work completely. I won’t do it anymore, complete waste of money and time.

Lots of guys just can’t build a RS kit. And many just don’t have that kind of time.

Something that would be nice is a way to get better parts to update one’s current gun. You said that the rs stuff is too big for a pedersoli Bess. What can one do?

I know Ethan from 11 Bang Bang uses RS parts on his Indian Charlesville. Would that help for an Indian Bess?

 

[Zapadach]

And there cost is?
11Bang Bang channel on you tube discussed this. They were able to get into the sport via Indian arms. They would have never had the cash to go with better, or at least unwilling to lay it out on a sport they may not like
My one Indian gun makes me happy, I could never justify in my economic situation a similar gun from the rifle shop.

My one Indian musket I like very much. It is a 1795 Springfield and it is simply beautiful. All I have done to it is refinish the stock and antique the barrel and the hardware. It took a very short time to do what I did to the gun, and cost very little money accomplish. I used left over chemicals from other projects. The fit of metal to the stock is very good, and it shoots just fine.

I wonder how big was your "sample" to come to such conclusions?

I've owned five, all from Loyalist Arms LLC, and still own and operate four of them. Two carbines, a trade gun, and a 1756 Bess. I don't see a reason to drop more than $1500 for an Italian made musket that would NEVER have been used by whom I portray at a living history event. Excellent wood to metal fit doesn't do much for something that did not exist yet. I did get a deal on a Bess that new would've been $1800 having had $300 worth of additional parts changes to make it look more like the Bess of the time period, a Long Land Bess. I got it used.

The only firing problems I've ever had with the India made product (mine were made in Udaipur) have bee remedied with replacing the flint.

LD

I wonder how big was your "sample" to come to such conclusions?

I've owned five, all from Loyalist Arms LLC, and still own and operate four of them. Two carbines, a trade gun, and a 1756 Bess. I don't see a reason to drop more than $1500 for an Italian made musket that would NEVER have been used by whom I portray at a living history event. Excellent wood to metal fit doesn't do much for something that did not exist yet. I did get a deal on a Bess that new would've been $1800 having had $300 worth of additional parts changes to make it look more like the Bess of the time period, a Long Land Bess. I got it used.

The only firing problems I've ever had with the India made product (mine were made in Udaipur) have bee remedied with replacing the flint.

LD

 

[FlinterNick]

Lots of guys just can’t build a RS kit. And many just don’t have that kind of time.

Something that would be nice is a way to get better parts to update one’s current gun. You said that the rs stuff is too big for a pedersoli Bess. What can one do?

I know Ethan from 11 Bang Bang uses RS parts on his Indian Charlesville. Would that help for an Indian Bess?

Ethan’s moved on from Indian guns….

 

[FlinterNick]

Lots of guys just can’t build a RS kit. And many just don’t have that kind of time.

Something that would be nice is a way to get better parts to update one’s current gun. You said that the rs stuff is too big for a pedersoli Bess. What can one do?

I know Ethan from 11 Bang Bang uses RS parts on his Indian Charlesville. Would that help for an Indian Bess?

If you can defarb an Indian made 1728 then you could build your own 1728 form a kilt, the only real complication is the lock assembly and there are plenty of folks who assemble them.

What can one do do? Save your pennies for what your really want, or settle for joan rivers.

 

[sturmkatze]

Ethan’s moved on from Indian guns….

Oh, I’ve seen his other stuff. But again, not everyone can RS kits. There has to be a happy medium.

 

[sturmkatze]

What can one do do? Save your pennies for what your really want, or settle for joan rivers.

You know my thoughts… this is not a gun I was issued. It’s bad enough that I have $800 in MY pedersoli. I’d flip out to mess up a dead-on balls accurate one.

Where do you draw the line? I can see both sides. It’s a hobby. Hobbies are supposed to be fun. If it’s not fun, why do it? I’m not all in on total hand-stitching either — I can’t see it unless I’m holding it in my hands with reading glasses on… except for button holes… you can see that.

Are we checking underwear? I’m wearing micro fiber glasses? Socks? You can see where I’m going. If the gun is your focus, do the gun. A lot of revwar people I’ve met have never fired live. To them, it’s a prop.

 

[sturmkatze]

Something about reenactors. I've had this for a long time (And I’ve posted in other places) and it rings true. Everyone has a different reason to do the hobby and none are more valid than any other.

Types of Reenactors

An old friend once told me that he had a really good take on the hobby; he said there were certain types of reenactors who come to the events.

• The “Cap Busters” (or powder burners) – the ones who live to burn powder and shoot.

• The “Poets” – those who think of it as some dreamy, ethereal thing. The “honor” of it all.

• The “Scholars” – Events and history and battles. Dates and times and places.

• The “Tactic Gurus” – need I say more. To them, this is so important. Even though many hobby events are scripted.

• The collectors – Again, need I say more. They worry about each bit of minutia and place high value on things that people back then couldn’t care less about. Soldiers, to this day, really can’t tell you a lot of details of the uniforms and kit they carried. Sure, they can remember bits, but not intricate details.

• The “Dress-Up Kings” – Again, need I say more. “Stand and preen” events are their thing and they like to be looked at. Or they HAVE to be an officer. And a corallary to this is...

• The “Janitor General” – This person has a low status job, but on weekends he (or she) is a King, General or senior ranking officer.

• The “Gun Nuts” – they’re in it for the guns and weapons. They usually shoot their guns live and cringe when they see some dork not clean his gun.

• The “Stocking Stuffer” – This person has every single accessory, as well as things they MIGHT have had. And by golly, they bring it to the event to show you.

• The “Experiencer” – Those of us who want to "feel" the time period or try and experience what they did. Of course, without the dirt, disease, pain, starvation, etc. i.e. the ickyness. Just a smidgeon of what they had or a "taste" of the period.

Anyway, most people are combinations of these. I’m sure that you’ll recognize yourself somewhere.

 

[Clark Badgett]

If 90% of the reenactors you encounter are farbs, you’re doing the wrong events.
Jay

Unless you are going to an invitation only event, usually small and centered around an actual focus living history you will encounter a majority of farbs. So, most public events, especially battles, are farbfests. This thread is proof. Everyone is quick to spout excuses why they willingly carry muskets that are grossly inaccurate representations of what they are supposed to be. If you can’t tell the difference, you probably are one.

 

[FlinterNick]

You know my thoughts… this is not a gun I was issued. It’s bad enough that I have $800 in MY pedersoli. I’d flip out to mess up a dead-on balls accurate one.

Where do you draw the line? I can see both sides. It’s a hobby. Hobbies are supposed to be fun. If it’s not fun, why do it? I’m not all in on total hand-stitching either — I can’t see it unless I’m holding it in my hands with reading glasses on… except for button holes… you can see that.

Are we checking underwear? I’m wearing micro fiber glasses? Socks? You can see where I’m going. If the gun is your focus, do the gun. A lot of revwar people I’ve met have never fired live. To them, it’s a prop.

I think people should buy what they can afford to buy, nothing more.

I’ve never said nobody should buy Indian made guns, i just give my honest thoughts and opinions on them,;…. They are junk, I’ve even directed people on where to purchase them knowing they’re junk. I’m not trying to convince someone not to buy them, but again, this thread is asking for opinions on buying them….so here we are.

With that said, i certainly don’t think anyone should sink additional money and time into junk. If you’re going to invest in your gun, invest your money wisely.

Again, call the spade the spade. If someone buys an Indian made gun, fine. accept what it is, and understand it will always be what it is as it was meant to be, shoot it, clean it, care for it.

Don’t go attempting to fit rifle shoppe castings on them, stupid … useless, these are the same people saying Indian guns are a great fit and finish, yet will invest a few hundred in rifle shoppe parts to make them work better. Dumb.

Same with Italian guns, they will always be Italian no matter what you get done to them.

 

[sturmkatze]

Unless you are going to an invitation only event, usually small and centered around an actual focus living history you will encounter a majority of farbs. So, most public events, especially battles, are farbfests. This thread is proof. Everyone is quick to spout excuses why they willingly carry muskets that are grossly inaccurate representations of what they are supposed to be. If you can’t tell the difference, you probably are one.

You are a problem for the hobby.

 

[Richard$58]

I wonder how big was your "sample" to come to such conclusions?

I've owned five, all from Loyalist Arms LLC, and still own and operate four of them. Two carbines, a trade gun, and a 1756 Bess. I don't see a reason to drop more than $1500 for an Italian made musket that would NEVER have been used by whom I portray at a living history event. Excellent wood to metal fit doesn't do much for something that did not exist yet. I did get a deal on a Bess that new would've been $1800 having had $300 worth of additional parts changes to make it look more like the Bess of the time period, a Long Land Bess. I got it used.

The only firing problems I've ever had with the India made product (mine were made in Udaipur) have bee remedied with replacing the flint.

LD

What is the risk of burst on any reproduction gun? I was told blanks can spike if not rammed properly.
Do these makers proof?

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Also exactly. What I like about Dave Persons and yourself, is that you are willing and try to help others. That is one of the best parts of the hobby.

im on board with that....

 

[Clark Badgett]

You are a problem for the hobby.

You really are a dried leaf in the breeze. I remember quite well you agreeing with what I’ve said on this subject in the past. You are king flip flop. Go with that breeze.

 

[Clark Badgett]

I think you missed the point. According to contemporary sources the originals were often illy bored. And MAY hit the figure of a man at eighty yards
And I’ve been around ml all my life, and not seen better metal to wood fit on any gun
Now Indian guns have too much wood, but and sometimes I understand sap wood is seen. It’s not on mine and an hour or so was all needed to bring my wood down
We’re all farby at some point
I’m less farby then thou is an attitude that just drives people away from the sport
You should be proud of your guns
But don’t look down your nose at others

All hand made anything is not going to be perfect, that’s a given. At what point did barrels start to be bored from a solid? It was a long number of years before the US had the technology to stop forming wrought iron around a mandrel. Even the highly advanced French gunmakers had problems holding anything under .040” tolerances on gun barrels. So comparing 260 year old tech against correct DOM metal tube practice is silly.

I do not disagree with the part about being a farb at some point. But to knowingly linger at that part is a failure to do your best. I will always look in pity at those who purposely stagnate themselves.