Favorite Muzzleloader movies

[musketman]

What are you top three favorite movies with muzzleloaders in them?
Mine are:1. The Mountain Men
2. Jeremiah Johnson
3. The Last of the Mohicans (1992 version)There are other runner-ups like Gettysberg and Man in the Wilderness...The Mountain Men tops the heap for quality smokepole action, plus it was filmed on location in Yellowstone National Park to boot.

 

I couldn't agree more with your choices, but would list them in a different order.

1. The Last of the Mohicans (1992)
2. Jeremiah Johnson
3. Man in the Wilderness
4. The Mountain Men [This message has been edited by Longhunter (edited 01-14-2003).]

 

[musketman]

I liked the movie "THE LAST OF THE MOHICANS (1992)" a lot, but there was one part I found a little far fetched...First off, HAWKEYE was using a first modle 1660 Brown Bess .78 caliber smoothbore with a 48 inch barrel and silk patchs for the round balls...Secondly, when they sent a runner from the fort while they provided cover, he made the saving shot (in the dead of the night) while the runner was seconds away from a tomahawk in the back using this smoothbore weapon, at a range that seemed in excess of 400 yards...Thirdly, Granted they lived off the land and their skills as a hunter/shooter, but I can safely say this... Don't believe everything Hollywood puts out...I used lubed SILK patched in my brown bess and they burned through, resulting in a pressure leak and a loss of power/distance.I tried them with Maxie-lube, Wonder Lube, Spit and Synthic Sperm Whale Oil...I tried doubling the patches, I tried using Fg, FFg, FFFg and they still burned through.I had mild results using one pillow tick & one silk patch together, but it loaded hard.So there you have it... I am not as good as Hollywood when it comes to loading and shooting my Brown Bess...

Maybe that's a good thing...
musketman [This message has been edited by musketman (edited 01-04-2003).]

 

quote:Originally posted by musketman:

Thirdly, Granted they lived off the land and their skills as a hunter/shooter, but I can safely say this... Don't believe everything Hollywood puts out...I couldn't agree more. Most movies have plenty to criticize as far as historical accuracy. When I watch them, I give them quite a bit of artistic license. I remind myself that they are made for the average person who knows nothing of history and just wants to be entertained.I do enjoy watching movies though. It helps me visualize how it really was, in spite of the flaws on the screen.[This message has been edited by Longhunter (edited 01-04-2003).]

 

[albert]

If you like to see traditional guns my favorite would be the movie Alvin York.No. 2 would have to be the miniseries Centennial,No. 3 the Mountain men

 

[crackerboy]

"THE BIG SKY" plus all the movies you feller's have listed!!

 

[Randy]

I'm sure you've all seen those movies where they shoot multiple times with a muzzleloading rifle without reloading. And six shooters that seem to get off 9 or ten shots. Also check out the beginning of the new Survivor show. They fire a flintlock and the flash comes from somewhere way ahead of the pan. (you may ned to record this and run it slow to catch it)
"The Patriot" is a good flick too.

Horse Dr.

 

[tg]

I think the Mohican flick was based on a book written in the 1800's that was based on Boones exploits in the late 1770's or early 1780's and ends up taking place in the movie in the late 1750's so we cannot blame Hollywood altogether...and where does he use a Brown Bess other than when he picks up dropped guns in the battle/chase scenes,the rifle he carried was a custom out of period type longrifle circa 1790 or thereabouts. fun flick though, I also like Drums Along the Mowhawk, The Big Sky ( Dewy Martin, Kirk Douglas,Aurther Hunnicutt, may hace the name wrong on this one) and many of the earlier period flicks from the 30's and 40's

 

[squirejohn]

For authenticity see THE BLACKROBE. It's different.

 

[musketman]

quote:Originally posted by tg:
and where does he use a Brown Bess other than when he picks up dropped guns in the battle/chase scenes,the rifle he carried was a custom out of period type longrifle circa 1790 or thereabouts. It looked like a first modle bess to my old eyes, thanks for the heads-up on the make.

 

[albert]

The no.#1 for me is "Sergeant Alvin York" followed by "The Mountain Men"and "Black Robe"

 

[Jay Gardner]

In the begining of JJ, the narator talks about JJ getting a .30 cal Hawken, "but damn, it was a Hawken." I am kind of new at this, but I did not believe that Hawken ever made a .30 cal gun.

 

[tg]

There are some who think this may have have been a reference to a gun of 30 balls to the Lb. which was a common method of gauging bore size and a carry over of the French Calibre denotation of gun bores. It would have been more commom in some pre 1840 periods to call a gun by the number of balls per Lb. rather than by decimal cal.

 

[Randy]

I'm almost sure you're right about that, tg. 30 balls to the pound would indicate .53 or .54 cal. a very popular Hawken bore size

Horse Dr.

 

[musketman]

quote:Originally posted by Horse Doctor:
I'm almost sure you're right about that, tg. 30 balls to the pound would indicate .53 or .54 cal. a very popular Hawken bore size

Horse Dr. If that was the case, then he already had his .50 caliber Hawkens, no need to want the big fifty.

I guessing that it was around .41 caliber or so, using a .390 ball.

Blackpowder online magazine quote:
[January 2002 Volume 1 Number 8]

"As a footnote to caliber of Hawken rifles, we have examined several dozen original Hawken rifles and have yet to find one less than .53 caliber (with the exception of a couple of small Hawken "trade" rifles). The largest bore measured was about .59 caliber."

 

[tg]

We must remember that this film was very loosely based on the life of "liver eating Johnson' and that the adaptation to screenplay, should not be taken with much in the way of any historical meaning,with few existing Hawkens left and the records from the shop destroyed in 1849 it is difficult to tell what all these two brothers made..and we must not forget their father and other gunbuilders of the family that date back to the 18th century all of whose guns would be"Hawkens"....some are fine longrifles of the rev war period.

 

[musketman]

Hollywood!

Need we say more....

We should take Hollywood with a few grains of salt.

 

[Ashelocoa]

"The Hawken rifle, brand new, of .30 caliber, cost Johnson fifty dollars. This was double the price charged in St. Louis--but not out of reason. It was the best make, and meant all the difference between life and death." P. 25-26, "Crow Killer--The Saga of Liver-Eating Lohnson", by Raymond W. Thorp and Robert Bunker.

He did purchase a .30 , the bore size is referred to throughout the text, he trusted it so much that he even tracked down and killed one who took it! He wanted a bigger bore, but as I've heard it it's best the gun goes off in the first place, then shot placement, then caliber that are important, within reason of course. He carried it for some years before picking up something else.

I never trusted Holleywood and just watch films for sheer enjoyment. Interesting about the silk patching though...that had me wondering...

Sleep close by the fire!

Ashelocoa

 

[tg]

When was this work written? it is not uncommon for later writers to be unfamiliar with earlier terminology and apply current meanings to things. Johnson live a long life and those who wrote of him after his death may not have had a clue about gun terminology in his earlier days, and they often have to put pieces of a puzzle together from long lost and ill remembered accounts to tell the story. It may have been a gun of a bore size around .30 but then again..

 

[Ashelocoa]

The story came from "Del" Gue, long time friend of Johnson, who told it to J.F. Anderson(AKA White-Eye) over a long friendship late in Gue's life from 1885 to sometime after 1900. Raymond Thorp first started to write the tale in interviews of White-Eye starting around 1940-41.
The cpyright date that is earliest is 1969. Del Gue told the story so I doubt he could have had too many facts wrong. Rating bores strictly by balls per pound was going by the wayside in the 19th century, that was an English system that started falling out when we kicked out the English; at least as far as rifles are concerned.

Johnson lived from 1822-1900, entered the frontier scene in 1843, fought in the civil war, and eventually checked himself into a veteran's hospital in Los Angeles, CA, where his grave can be found today.

He went west to trap, not hunt, and I read very little about his doing much hunting. He fought mainly with his feet and a knife. The rifle he chose was for it's reputation alone. He wanted a bigger bore but didn't want to compromise quality for a bigger bore. He knew the Hawkens' reputation and wanted the best in workmanship. I can't blame him either, I'd take a reliable small bore over a questionable big bore if I knew my life may depend on it...

As Jeff Cooper once put it-- a .22 in the tear duct will stop a man as fast as any other in the chest.


And as always, keep your powder dry.

Ashelocoa