Favorite Muzzleloader movies

[tg]

I thought it may have been written long after his passing, while possibly accurate in many ways it would not pass as primary documenation so to speak,time has a way of altering the facts.
we will never know the truth behind the "calibre" issue, there are few records of what guns Hawkens made in that time period that would reflect Johnsons time in the mountains depicted in the film which was after the peak of the fur trade era, all in all an interesting story/film based in fact and on the life of a real person. It brings to mind a painting by Catlin of an Osage warrior from a time decades before Catlins time thus leaving little in the way of historical evidence attathched to the painting

 

I would put my favorite muzzle-loading movies as
1) The Last of the Mohegans
2) Glory
3) Jeremiah Johnson
4) The Patriot

I know, I know, there are a lot of historical inaccuracies in ALL of the above movies, but as time goes on, the public becomes more and more sophisticated and the number and obviousness of these have decreased.

To Early AMerican History Buffs, these inaccuracies are still glaring, much are much less so to the general public. Hopefully, with time, Hollyweird will make greater efforts to achieve accuracy and become less supercilious about the ability of the general public to grasp things like Tarleton's legion wearing green coats instead of the traditional red ones. At least the moive producers KNEW they were in error there - or so they claimed.

I wonder how many people on this list actually READ any of the Leatherstocking Tales by Cooper
They were written in the early 1800's, I believe, and more reflected the attitudes of the early Victorians than the people of the French and Indian War and Revolutionary Era period. I would say that the movie, in this case, as a work of theatrical art, was far better than the book, far better than the average run of Hollyweird productions, and probably the best we could hope for at the moment. The acting was superb. The actor who played Montcalm generated the kind of Gallic unctiousness that Anglo-Americans of that period would have suspected. He was especially good in that he doesn't speak English and so had to memorize the English lines and accompanying gestures and expressions, which I think he did flawlessly. Daniel Day Louis is a first rate actor. He WAS BETTER than the Natty Bumpo of Cooper. Madeleine Stowe couldn't have been more perfect. The guy who played Magua, Wes Study, was THE MAN!! He played that role with all the emotion and malignity of the original character and then some - he's a first rate actor who did a first rate job. Ditto for the guy who played the British commander. The scene involving Magua and the blonde girl was really moving, and Russell Means and the other Indian actors were perfect.
The scenary and the music are haunting. My wife refuses to let me rerun that movie in the house anymore when she is there.

"Glory" was a great movie. Whenever I see Broderick Crawford I see him in that character. He is forever type cast in my mind. Denzel Washington, the guy who played "Thomas", the actor who played the black sergeant, the Irish drillmaster - PERFECT!! This is another movie banned by wife when she's in the house.

Jeremiah Johnson was good.

The Patriot was in many ways a disappointment from the historical accuracy perspective, but Mel Gibson is such a good actor, I can forgive him,
(his Braveheart was equally entracing and equally inaccurate - the "Miracle at Sterling Bridge, performed by Wallace and Scots should have been presented instead of a mythical battle - it was increadible and clever enough without any alterations like slapping backsides)

Its SOOOOO hard to find ANY movie these days that's even worth my time, that I find these productions welcome with all theior flaws. If they convicne ONE kid SOMWHERE that American History and muzzle-loading guns are worth studying, they have served their purpose.

By the way, I've got my fingers crossed about the new Russell Crow movie "Commander and Master" which is due to hit the theaters in November. From the TV trailers it looks like a great movie.
If you like sailing ships and the BIG muzzle-loaders - it might be worth the ten bucks to see it.

 

[tg]

I found an intersting passage from the writings of Rufus Sage after returning from a 1841-1843 trip into the Rockies, something to the effect that a normal outfit included a rifle of 30-35 balls to the lb. also Catlin made mantion of a cannon of a caliber of 12lbs. this is not intened to refute the .30 bore size of Johnsons gun but this is a primary document from the period useing period terms and does give cause to wonder, when compared to the details passed down from a friend of a person as written buy yet another person many years after the fact.

 

[Ashelocoa]

""Del" Gue told much of this story. As Johnson's partner, Del Shared many of his experiences. AS good talker and listener Del heard and sorted out what many another Mountain Man had seen of Johnson."

""Del told Johnson's story in special detail to "White-Eye"--J.F. Anderson. As one who had observed some of Johnson's exploits for himeself, Anderson took special care that the story be set against exact physical background."

"...White-eye spoke only what he was sure of,..."

"[Raymond W. Thorp]...was in correspondence with men who knew Jonhson in the 1870's and 1880's,...he knew the way Mountain Men talked, from his own long association with the last of them."

These were authors that knew their stuff, first person, second person in the case of White-eye, whose eveidence they diligently cross referenced with other interviews, governement and municipal records. I have no doubt the accuracy of the text.

As for the records of the Hawkens rifles, it is known they made rifles over quite a few years and started out making guns that were full stocked "long rifles", the classic "Hawken" came after the fur trade had passed its hayday. Small bore rifles were not rare or unheard of, William Clark carries a .36 cal. rifle on the cross continental expedition with Meriwether Lewis. Frequent references were made to its tremendous accuracy and it's distinct lack of "power". Perhaps the reason it was the only Hawken on the shelf was precisely because it was .30 cal., one more experienced mountain men(Johnson was 22 and greener than frogs)would pass up for a lrger bore.

Read the book, it's not as readable as some as the authors tried hard to capture the dialect and speech patterns and slang of the time, but it's well researched at a time when the contemorary sources were still walking and talking.

Ashelocoa

 

[tg]

I really have no opinion as to whether the gun was .30 bore size or 30 caliber as in 30 balls to the lb. the later designation was still used in the mid 1840's there is primary source evidence of this, I am curious how many primary sources list the decimal system for denoting bore size in the fur trade era, or shortly after. There is no evidence that the "gauge" system of naming smoothbores was used in the 18th century but we commonly refer to our 20 gauge NW trade guns (which were of .58 bore size)and such and typical shoot a much larger ball than would have been use historicaly from existing records.

 

[Ashelocoa]

Many sane people went west into the Eastern Woodlands armed only with an ax, and many have run extended trap lines with only edged weapons and no firearms. A man armed with a .30 cal. weapon of a reliable make combined with a level head should be able to make due.

Daniel Boone hunted the Eastenr Woodlands with a .45 flintlock, killing bears, deer and buffalo. Today this is referred to as "anemic" but many people made due with less than that. I know peronally of a man who shot a deer clean through at 125 yards with a .45 flinter. (Admittedly, he said he'll never try that again, but he did it just the same)

I see no reason why a person with any historical perspective could discount such a thing out of hand.

As for the possibility of a small bore Hawken, perhaps it was made on request by someone who never came to collect it, or perhaps one of hte gunsmiths who worked under them produced it. Their rifles, like all others at the time, were individually crafted not popped out of a mold. With so many historical examples of rifles that don't fit what is considered the "norm", is it so hard to believe? But I see this argument seems to get me nowhere, so I'll take leave of it...

Ashelocoa

 

[tg]

I think we may have drifted past the original issue of bore nomenclature, let's look past the Johnson gun and we find that a gun of 30 caliber at that time could be a gun of 30 balls to the lb. this is supported by primary documentation, thus we do have reason to "study" the possibilities of what is meant when a 30 caliber gun is mentioned as being used in that time period. Whether we feel that it would be wise, sane or out of lack of experience that one would take a small bore gun(which did exist then) into the Rockies is not the point. I think that more period references to guns and the bore sizes they are designated by and by which system (decimal or by the lb)used would be very helpfull in offereing a much clearer focus on some of the writings of events and equipment of the time.

 

[musketman]

Here is an intresting link to the Hawken rifle.
http://www.nps.gov/jeff/Gazettes/HawkenRifle.html

Also a link to guns of the mountain men.
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/museum/guns/guns.html

 

[musketman]

Crow Killer: The Saga of Liver-Eating Johnson

"This little volume of what professes to be pure history contains the exploits, along with a good many stories that probably arent true, of the Mountain Man John Johnson."

John Johnson???

This is interesting...

John "Jeremiah" Johnston
(1823 - January 21, 1900)

Born in New Jersey and of Scottish descent, Jeremiah started his career as a mountain man about 1843. His adventures during these early years are typical of fur trappers.

In between those various jobs, he would return to the wilds he loved where his movements and purpose are not known. In 1895, his health failing (he was 72), he left the mountains and in 1899, entered a Veterans Hospital in Los Angeles.

Originally, John Johnston was buried in the hospital cemetery in Los Angeles, but was moved (with Robert Redford as one of the pallbearers) to Old Trail Town in Cody, Wyoming.

http://www.theoldwestwebride.com/txt6/JereJohnsnGrv.html

 

[LRB]

As I posted on another part of the board, Raymond Thorp has a poor reputation for historical accuracy. He also wrote a book on the Bowie knife that has recently been reprinted by popular demand from the Bowie affectianos so that they can get a good laugh over the historical inaccuracies and the outright fabrications. This is enough to cause me to question anything he ever wrote. Like someone else that posted, the only reference to small bore "hawken" rifles I have ever seen were refering to the trade guns that they sold as a side line. I cannot imagine any sane person going west at that time period with a .30 cal rifle as his only gun.

 

[Jack Walker]

The mountainmen, Jerimia Johnson,Drums along the Mohawk, Blackrobe,Last of the Mohichans there are quite a few!

 

[No Powder]

This probably don't really qualify here but, some times we take a camcorder to the rendezvous, try and stay out of sight, take some movies. Then in the winter have some buckskinner friends over have a meal and relive the vous. Great fun especially if you catch someone doing something stupid.

 

[musketman]

Cool idea.
Then you can have a rendezvous any time you want.

You could copy the tapes and give them out to your friends too, that would make a nice gift.

 

[Darkhorse]

In the past I have read most of the Leatherstocking tales. The Deerslayer and The last of the Mohicans come foremost in memory. After having read the books, I much prefer the movie version myself. It is far more stirring. And probably just as factual as James Fenimoe Coopers tales of impossible accuracy at unrealistic yardages.

John (?) Milius, one of the producers of Jeremiah Johnson has always been a stickler for historical accuracy as far as possible and as much as literary success would allow. I personally think the gun was meant in the context of the movie, to be .30 Caliber rifle. The previous stated reasons by Ashelacoa all make perfectly good sense. Remember later when he found Hatchet Jack and took the rifle from his frozen hands, he looked at it and said "50 caliber hawken!" Also given that all lead and powder was carried either on person or horse, it doesn't stand to reason the other calculation was meant, far too much weight and too few shots.
There was also a rifle called the Hawken Squirrel rifle and this rifle was a smaller caliber. It was often carried by settlers crossing the prairie who would have been much more likely to choose a smaller cal. than an experienced mountain man. I have always felt this is what JJ actually purchased as a greenhorn.

And for Old Daniel Boone, if you choose a plain, iron mounted southern poorboy type rifle to emulate what he actually carried into indian territory then I doubt you would be too far off the mark historically.

 

[musketman]

DARKHORSE QUOTE: [There was also a rifle called the Hawken Squirrel rifle and this rifle was a smaller caliber.]

Hawken Squirrel Rifle
It has nice lines, a very clean looking muzzleloader.

http://www.donstith.com/hawken_squirrel.html

 

[tg]

I would be very interested in seeing some examples of some original iron mounted southern poor boys from the 1750-1775 time period of the type that Boone would have carried.

 

[tg]

I know that many people make "replicas" of early (pre 1775) iron mounted guns from south and north, but the originals have to be there as well to back up the validity of the "replicas" from a historicaly correct point of view and I have yet to see any brought to show when this topic arises. I have heard of some possibly made with simple straps of iron as triggerguards and such but nothing like the furniture that you see which is just an iron/steel mirrored image of the brass type. when looking for historically accurate guns always go to the originals not the replicas..

 

I'd like to see a movie made about the life of Daniel Morgan - a really bigger than life backwoodsman.

 

[SteveAnderson]

Remember, the vast majority of people that watch movies know little about historical authenticity...or even care. In general the movies are made for them, not us. I was an extra in the movie Last of the Mohicans. One thing I will always remember is hearing the director, Michael Mann, his daily screaming at us through his bull horn, "This is not a F#*@~n documentry, its a G#@D*%> movie!!!"

 

[graybeard]

You movie lovers never mentioned "Comancheros" with John Wayne. It takes place during the Republic of Texas (1830s) and shows them shooting 1873 Colt SAs and lever action Winchesters that look like Model 94s. Or try Wayne's movie about the Alamo. They show all the fighters using muzzleloaders, but only for one second do you see anyone using a ramrod to load his rifle. "Gettysburg" was the first movie I can remember that showed a lot of men using their ramrods to load their rifles. I seem to recall from an American Literature class that James Fenimore Cooper was long on action but mighty short on realism. And he predated Hollywood by many, many years. Graybeard.