FFFG question

I have a used Traditions .50 cal Kentucky Rifle. It's in great shape and we examined the bore with a tiny, drop down bore light and all looks good.

Never had my own ML before so I have a question about the powder I have.

I have Hodgdon triple Se7en FFFG. Everybody talks of FFG and that is why I have this question. I have been told that FFFG is better for my rifle but want to verify info.

Should my starting load for .490 RB and a .01 lubed patch be 50 grains? Can I work up to 75 grains if needed.

I am concerned for the firearm's safety as well as my own.

I have reloaded smokless handgun and shotgun for years but have no experience with blackpowder.

Is there any differences between this product and real blackpowder that would adversely affect my firearm?

Any other safety tips when firing and reloading a ML?

What is the best bore lube after cleaning?

Thanks for all advice and suggestions.

 

[weasel]

Frank triple seven ignites at about 750 deg farenheit. black powder ignites at 450 degrees
in a hunting situation you be the judge. triple seven has no sulpher and cleans with only water
the general rule is reduce your powder load with 3f because of faster burn rate hence higher pressures I new a feller that shot 90 gr triple 7 thru a traditional rifle with a 385 gr maxiball blew the nipple out of the patent breech creased his cheek and took a chunk out of the hangy down part of his ear he was lucky good luk
weasel

 

[LRB]

Stick to black powder, and that won't happen

 

[hgchemist]

Hi Frank

I'm new at this as well, but here are a couple things that might help. According to the triple seven brochure, you have to reduce your charges by 15% to match black powder (i.e. 60gr 777 = 69gr bp). Also, it has listings for loading a .50 with a round ball using either 2f or 3f, but I was told by the guy at the shooters supply to use 2f in my rifle (CVA hawken .50 traditional). Also, it supposedly cleans up quite well with water (three wet patches, three dry, alternating wet/dry). I bought the 777 purely for the supposed cleanliness compared to black powder or pyrodex. But all of this is just hearsay from me, 'cause I have not fired a shot from my rifle yet (just doing a lot of reading and asking questions). But, you can download the 777 brochure from hogdons web site also.

Hope this helps,

Chris

 

[Zonie]

Frank: I'd second (or third) the motion that you check out the manufactures recommendation. I hav'nt shot that type of powder but speaking in general, for the FFFg Blackpowder or Pyrodex P most say it's good up to .45 cal and switch to FFg or Pyrodex RS for .50 and up.
Now I know some who shoot the FFFg and Pryodex P in .50s and even .54s and some of them use some fairly hot loads(talkin in the 85 grain area for the .50s) without problems and with good accuracy.

Each gun has its weakness but as a side note, I've shot 80 grains of Pyrodex RS behind a 330 grain paper patched bullet in my .40 caliber precussion Schuetzen over 100 times and never had a nipple blow out or even come loose for that matter but note that that is with Pyrodex. (This is where the lawyer comes out and says I'm not responsible for anything that happens to your gun or you. Damned lawyers have it so a person can't even talk anymore without covering his butt with both hands).
Good Shootin to ya

 

[Ironwood]

Frank... There's no problem using 3F Triple 7 in your muzzleloader. Read the information Hodgdon gives on their website. http://www.hodgdon.com/data/tripleseven/50calroundball-3f.php#top I think Hodgdon also suggest you check with Traditions for an owners manual. You might be able to get one online.

I've shot up a pound of Triple 7 2F in my CVA Hawken rifle. However I've gone back to real black powder. It's true that Triple 7 is hotter than black powder. It has very little fowling and cleanup is a snap with just plain water. There in lies the problem I have with Triple 7. Here in East Texas we have lots of mornings with 100% humidity. I've had some mis-fires with Triple 7 after only a mornings hunt.

 

Thanks to all who have responded. Your sugesstions and advice are appreciated.

 

[tucoblue]

You have a black powder rifle shoot black powder in it. It's part of the fun. A swab between shots and you can shoot all day no issues.

 

Tucoblue

Next question. What do I swab the barrel with between shots?

Will regular gun lube/oil ruin sebsequent powder charges?

I see a lot of disucssion regarding wax etc for patches. I have also heard of "bore butter". Is that a product containing no petroleum products?

Thanks to other responses I have ordered an owner's manual from Traditions and they said they prefer FFG in their guns when it comes to a black powder substitute. However, their website and the customer service guy say FFFG will work fine as long as I reduce the load 15% as mentioned in another response.

Thanks in advance

 

[roundball]

You'll find thee are a variety of choices in this sport, and I can share what works well for me;

I use Goex FFFg in .45, .50, 54, and 62 calibers, it's fast, clean, and accurate;

I use nothing but Natural Lube 1000 (bore-butter) inside the bore and no direct petroleum products;

I use precut shooting patches that are prelubed with natural lube 1000; I also happen to use prelubed "wonderwads" over the powder but that's not an absolute necessity. However, it does reduce fouling so you don't have to wipe at all between shots, and the wad helps make a more consistent seal under the patched ball;

I've always followed TC Arms procedures to clean the bore with hot soapy water, scrub with a bore brush a few strokes every time to prevent buildup, rinse with plain hot water, get the bore bone dry, then lube the bore heavily with natural lube 1000.

 

As Rounball says "there are a variety of choices in this sport" so.......this is what works for me

The only patch lube I use is saliva. I cut my patches at the muzzle from a strip and never need to swab between shots. I do however blow down the barrel between shots to extinguish any embers and this will also soften fouling contributing to the ability to load without swabbing. The 50th shot loads as easy as the first. I clean pretty much the same as Roundball but use Birchwood Casey Sheath rather that NL 1000 for a rust prohibitor. As you can see, there are many choices in this sport. What Roundball does works great. What I do works great. There are other great ways to accomplish the same thing. Try several before settling on what you like. The exeption to the above is for hunting. Then I use Wonder lube or natural lube or something like that (it's yellow and smells like A5-35)because saliva will dry out sitting in the bore for several days

Cody

 

[musketman]

You would think saliva would promote rust insude the barrel, and it could freese the patch to the bore on a cold winter's day of hunting.

If you go the whole day without seeing anything to shoot, the wet patch just sits there, getting your barrel rusty.

I know you clean and oil, but why add water?

I use wonder lube on my patches full time, it has never failed me yet.

 

[weasel]

cody
I spit patch at shoots when i dont feel like haulin more stuff aroun than needed in a huntin siuation I always dry patch personally I don't think a patch would freeze to a barrel after touchin one off. what think you? I would probably be concerned of rustin a ring in barrel if left over nite
weasel

 

Musketman/Weasel,
A spit patch freezing in the bore is not a concern to me. Nor do I think rust would be a problem. My Dad has been shooting the same rifle since the mid seventies and has used nothing but saliva as a patch lube and has never had an issue with rust. However, as I mentioned in my previous post, I use a commercial lube for hunting because the patched ball often stays in the barrel for days or weeks. I don't change lube for fear of freezing or rust but rather a spit patch will dry out and the patch will burn out causing serious accuracy problems. I'm not saying that freezing or rust won't happen. I really don't know. I just don't see it as an issue for me whith the type of shooting I do with spit.

Cody

 

Frank,
I also have a Traditions "Kentucky" rifle. I have found that a load of 65 grains of fffg, a .017 pillow ticking patch with some of Junior Doughty's "Junior Lube" works wonders. I am shootin 1 inch patterns at 50 yds.
To Cody, You were talkin' about leaving the same charge in your rifle for weeks at a time ??? I once missed a shot of a lifetime on a huge bull Elk, an 8x7, just because some moiosture from the humidity had gotten under the cap and somehow around the powder. Since then I usually unload at least every other day or everyday depending on how humid it is. Just a thought from an old man.

 

[roundball]

Durig a weeks vacation deer hunting, I left a .50cal percussion loaded overnight, confident in the "muzzlemitt" sealing the bore, and the "nipple seal" I had on the nipple.

At first light one morning I had a slight delay fire at a 6 pointer, ended up shooting high and took a tuft of hair off the top of his back above the heart / lung area.

Have never left a rifle loaded since then, always starting with a fresh load in a dry barrel every morning.

And as an outstanding coincidence, was on that same stand a week later, and shot that same buck with a .30-30, bare skin spot across his back, etc

 

[Ironwood]

Frank,

I don't think anyone answered your question of what to swab with between shots when target shooting. Normally just a cleaning patch dampened with plain water will clean the fowling left by the first shot. Then a dry cleaning patch to dry the water. I sometimes run two dry patches after the water dampened patch.

Gene

 

[roundball]

To restate my point above, no wiping between shots is necessary at all when using nothing but natural lube 1000 lube and prelubed products.

I routinely shoot 40-50 shots at a range sesion and never wipe the bore until the drive home with both Pyrodex and Goex FFFg...makes shooting a real joy of just shooting, not constantly wiping / cleaning bores...great stuff

 

[Gerry]

I find that I must clean after 2 or 3 shots or I have a hard time getting the ball down the barrel of my CVA Hawken when I use black powder. With Pyrodex, I can often shoot 10 or more without cleaning. I wet my patch with alcohol for cleaning between shots, then use a dry patch. After 2 or 3 shots with ffg, I get fouling about 8 or 10 inches down the barrel that makes it difficult to load.

 

Chris/ Roundball,
Thanks for sharing your first hand experiences with loads left for long periods. I often wonder about poor performance (or no performance) from an old load. However, My dad hunts with a custom made halfstock made by a friend in Germany that has a Whitworth bore. He shoots 510g slugs that are hex shaped and have the twist rate cast into them. they come from the gunmaker in Germany and @ $3-4 a pop he's not too keen on shooting them off at the end of each hunting day. He once pulled one and since the nose was buggered up from the puller, he decided to drill it out a bit and fill the tip with wax. Bad idea, he shot a moose with it and the exit hole was the size of a basketball. The slug came apart in several large pieces (we assume) and acted like a shotgun with buckshot. Anyway, he started leaving it loaded, sometimes from one hunting season to the next and never had a problem. My brother has left his PH Whitworth loaded for several years and when he shot it out to replace the load before going hunting it fired flawlessly. I routinely leave mine loaded for weeks and only discharge for a reload if I've been hunting in the rain or VERY high humidity conditions. This season, my longrifle was loaded for 3 weeks when my son and I came across a grouse. I gave the rifle to Billy and he head shot the grouse at +-20 yards. No problem. I agree that discharging and cleaning every night wuold be a good idea, I just don't do it. Now having said all that, tommorow morning I'm going out for mule deer and watch, I'll likely get a missfire on a 190 + buck.

Cheers
Cody