Ffg vs fffg

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Jaybird1488

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i have ”quick” question . I have an Investarm 50 cal Hawken, carbine. A short barrel I bought from cables a long time ago. I’m having trouble with my groups. I’m shooting 70 gr of fffg pyrodex. cause that is what I can get locally. I’ve tried various patches and powder amounts with no improvement on my groups. If I can keep it on a paper plate at 50 yards I’m lucky. When I first got it I shot 75 gr of ffg elephant real black powder with acceptable results. My question is will the burn rates of ffg to fffg be different enough to cause t
my problem?
thanks!!
 
I’m really looking for some science on how the powder sizes react. Would a faster burning fff push my round ball out of the short barrel too fast to allow the rifling to get the spin up to speed?
 
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The gun may simply not like your choice in powder, but it also helps to know what charge weights you are using.
 
Pyrodex is not BP, it's only made to act similarly to, but not exactly like, BP

Pyrodex "P" ( FFFg equivalent) is meant for pistols, which means it performs differently than Pyrodex "RS" ( FFg equivalent) in rifles.

Pyrodex powders are synthetic "equivalents" and, while suggested to be used the same as Holy Black, IME are not a good as Holy Black for all applications.

I used Pyro for several years after it was first introduced, but went back to Holy Black after living with inconsistent ignition in my rifles.
 
From reports ive heard about elephant powder it is one of the slower powders. Ive never used it so ymmv. But you may try reducing you pyrodex load a little bit more.
Also if im not mistaken those Investarms Cabelas carbines were a little faster twist, 1:48 and possibly even some 1:32s. Great guns imho, but they tended to shoot better with conicals. If you have any maxiballs or similar you might give them a try with an overpowder wad. I'd be willing to bet a dollar that your groups tighten up.
 
A quick question with a variety of not so quick answers. You should work up a load for both ff and fff, patch material, thickness and the lube will all have an impact on accuracy and consistency. Both will work but every barrel is unique unto itself, generalities aside. It may take time and patience but they will get you where you want to be. I usually use a balistol and water solution about the consistency of spit to work up a load and if the gun is to be used for hunting, after a good accurate load is achieved I switch to a hunting lube like mink oil and fine tune it from there. Enjoy the journey, the destination will be all the more rewarding.
Robby
 
I bought a cabelas investarms model not too long ago. It has a more modern stock with a rubber pad and modern comb and cheekrest design. They made two models like this one with a really short barrel and one with a longer barrel. I have read that the longer barrel model has a 1-48 twist but the shorter barrel model has a much faster twist made for conicals and plastic patched bullets. Not sure if you are running into this or not but if you have a really fast twist and are trying to shoot ball it could explain things.
 
So the faster twist I have the slower burn I need ,
Im sorry, i meant to say slower velocities, not slower burn rate. (Less speed from the same volume of powder under a similar projectile)The faster the twist, the longer the bullet CAN be and shoot accurately. Balls dont need to spin much(or at all?) to achieve good accuracy. But a faster twist can adversely affect a balls accuracy. Faster twists can strip the patch and pall. Lighter loads are often the answer to a prb in a faster twist. Try a lighter load, like 50grn of the pyrodex, and see if your prb groups close up. Then maybe throw a couple conicals like a Great Plains or MaxiBall on the original 70-75grn load. See which groups better. Ive found that ffg works better in my renegade than fffg. But its a .45 1:28 twist and i only shoot heavier conicals from it, and t7 ffg,. In an Investarms .50 1:48 i had, i shot maxiballs and t7 really well.
 
I’m really looking for some science on how the powder sizes react. Would a faster burning fff push my round ball out of the short barrel too fast to allow the rifling to get the spin up to speed?
If your blowing patches, the powder change is not going to help your accuracy. I use 3f in everything and have had no issues . The short answer to your question is no, the powder granulation should not make a difference. You have something else going on. Are you shooting black powder or Pyrodex? You seem to have answered your own question. You stated when you were shooting Elephant powder you had acceptable results.
 
I’m really looking for some science on how the powder sizes react. Would a faster burning fff push my round ball out of the short barrel too fast to allow the rifling to get the spin up to speed?
Since BP burns on the surface of the granules (Pyrodex is chlorate enhanced BP, with a dextrin as a fuel source, rather than charcoal; because of this, it burns slower than BP), the smaller the granules, the faster it is consumed. This changes the pressure curve of the explosion in the barrel. For it to be efficient, your powder has to be consumed well before the bullet leaves the barrel (so the bullet gets the most acceleration from the powder). Another thing that has an effect on burn rate is the density and height-width ratio of the charge. Because finer powders burn faster, the breech pressures will be higher, but the time it takes to be consumed is less, so you can get away with a shorter barrel. Courser granulations are capable of a little higher velocity, due to the moment of force being longer, but you have to balance that with the afore mentioned considerations (small pebble powder in a 20 bore rifle with a 32" barrel works great, think cannon powder that has been sifted for size).

Stabilizing projectiles with rifling is a function of RPM. The faster you shove a projectile down the barrel, the faster it is spun. The issue you can run into (especially with projectiles with extremely limited bearing surface like a RB) is that the projectile can strip off of the rifling, and not be spun.

As far as why you are having accuracy issues, it can be many things. Your patching material may be too thin/too loose of a material, your projectile may be too undersized or oversized, your rifling may be too deep, it may be too shallow, you may have loading inconsistencies (especially if you are trying to compress the loading and are using volume to meter powder); and you might just be in between accuracy nodes for the rifle. My .50 RB rifle is a 26" 1:48 twist shallow groove (.005") rifled, and shoots just over 1.5 MOA with 100gr (weighed) of 3F and a paper patched ball. It's still good if I go down to 85gr, but then it goes to crap until I get down to 50gr. Likewise, If I go up to 110gr, accuracy starts to struggle, until I get up to 130gr. If I change the powder granulation or formulation, it shifts the nodes. I want to get some 2F and try it again, since when I tried 2F before, I was doing the whole "compressed load and volumetric powder measure" thing, and see if I can get a little more out of it.
 
I have that gun with a 28 inch barrel with 1:48 twist. Shoots round balls well with 65 grains of 3F or Pyrodex. I use .490 balls and .015 patch. I’d bet the shorter barrel has a faster twist but in my experience how well it shoots round balls depends on the gun and load.
 
i have ”quick” question . I have an Investarm 50 cal Hawken, carbine. A short barrel I bought from cables a long time ago. I’m having trouble with my groups. I’m shooting 70 gr of fffg pyrodex. cause that is what I can get locally. I’ve tried various patches and powder amounts with no improvement on my groups. If I can keep it on a paper plate at 50 yards I’m lucky. When I first got it I shot 75 gr of ffg elephant real black powder with acceptable results. My question is will the burn rates of ffg to fffg be different enough to cause t
my problem?
thanks!!

Black powder burns at a fixed rate and that rate is determined by the size of the grains. The smaller the grain the faster it burns to completion. The faster it burns creates a higher volume of gas in a shorter period of time which, in turn, effects the travel of the ball down the barrel. These variables can cause differences in the rifling's effect on a patched ball causing variations in a balls accuracy. The answer to your question is yes.
 
Shoot a group with 50 grains, then with 55 grains, then with 60 grains, then with 65 grains, then with 70 grains , then with 75 grains, then with 80 grains etc.

It's called laddering. Then compare group size to each other. That is the only way to tell. Then you can ladder the same with different patches again compare groups. Then you can try a different lube.

Do this and you will learn what your gun like. Sorry no short cuts as that is how you find out for Your gun.
 
My .50 cal, with a 26" barrel, shoots well with 50 grains of 3F black powder, .490 round ball, and washed blue thread pillow ticking. I find that getting the right thickness of patching for the ball size has a BIG affect on accuracy.
 
I have a InvestArms Plains Rifle with 1:48 twist and I've found 60 grains of 3F black powder, .490 round ball, and a lubed patch gives an acceptable group at 50 yards. I've seen the problem your describing with barrels that plastic sabots have been shot in it.
 

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