Fighting styles: Tomahawk and Knife

[Yellowhouse]

I have seen several movies in which NA...mainly woodland Indians who assume a posture with the Hawk or war club in one hand and a downward pointing knife in the other. (The battle between Wes Studi and Chingachcook in The Last of the Mohicans sure comes to mind.)The latter, I assume was for a sweeping slash or for stabbing down in close quarters. Is this more effective than a thrusting/slashing grip with the blade forward? Or is this just a big dose of Hollywood?

 

[Black Hand]

I have seen several movies in which NA...mainly woodland Indians who assume a posture with the Hawk or war club in one hand and a downward pointing knife in the other. (The battle between Wes Studi and Chingachcook in The Last of the Mohicans sure comes to mind.)The latter, I assume was for a sweeping slash or for stabbing down in close quarters. Is this more effective than a thrusting/slashing grip with the blade forward? Or is this just a big dose of Hollywood?

It may be all Hollywood - based upon oriental martial arts and knife-fighting techniques. With the knife pointed downward along the forearm, it can be used defensively and offensively, though downward stabs might have more difficulty penetrating to vital organs in the thorax & abdomen (because of the way bones are positioned) compared to upward, while slices across may have greater effect but less penetration. This position also conceals the actual position of the knife to where it isn't readily apparent to the opponent, allowing for greater surprise. This doesn't preclude switching to a blade-up position as needed. In the movie specifically, it reminds me more of Filipino stick-fighting than anything else, though the actor weren't really trying to injure each other and the action was for dramatic effect.

 

[Ranger Boyd]

My frame of reference for knife fighting is the Applegate method (Named for OSS Col. Rex Applegate), which involves a "blade up" knife held close to the body with the weak arm used to parry / block. Though I have never actually had to use the technique, I remember being used as a "volunteer" in a hand-to-hand combat class many years ago at the Naval Academy. When given a rubber training knife so the instructor could demonstrate unarmed knife defense, I assumed the Applegate stance, and he realized that the defense he intended to demonstrate would not work, so he made me switch. I had a laugh at that (to myself, of course).

 

[Sicilian Hunter]

My frame of reference for knife fighting is the Applegate method (Named for OSS Col. Rex Applegate), which involves a "blade up" knife held close to the body with the weak arm used to parry / block. Though I have never actually had to use the technique, I remember being used as a "volunteer" in a hand-to-hand combat class many years ago at the Naval Academy. When given a rubber training knife so the instructor could demonstrate unarmed knife defense, I assumed the Applegate stance, and he realized that the defense he intended to demonstrate would not work, so he made me switch. I had a laugh at that (to myself, of course).

Ranger,
The Applegate school of training is well respected and effective.
However, a reverse grip on a knife among knife fighters is Hollywood BS and a poor idea at best.
I've studied Filipino Martial arts and Krav Maga ( which employs largely FMA knife techniques) and my instructor demonstrated time and again the loss of reach from a reverse grip.
You may pull off cuts and slashes but power cuts to specific target areas and thrusts are what ends knife/sword fights.
Incidentally, my instructor generally mentioned that in a knife fight someone was going to the morgue and someone was going to the emergency room because only in the movies does one walk away unscathed from a fight where blades are used.
If I had to use knife and tomahawk, I'd use the knife point up.
Otherwise I'd just use the tomahawk alone.

The Sicilian

 

[Sicilian Hunter]

I have seen several movies in which NA...mainly woodland Indians who assume a posture with the Hawk or war club in one hand and a downward pointing knife in the other. (The battle between Wes Studi and Chingachcook in The Last of the Mohicans sure comes to mind.)The latter, I assume was for a sweeping slash or for stabbing down in close quarters. Is this more effective than a thrusting/slashing grip with the blade forward? Or is this just a big dose of Hollywood?

Yellow house,
The short answer is that its Hollywood BS.
Do search for the 12 angles of attack for knife fighting.
Some people have adapted it for other weapons including tomahawk.

The Sicilian

 

[Ranger Boyd]

Ranger,
The Applegate school of training is well respected and effective.
However, a reverse grip on a knife among knife fighters is Hollywood BS and a poor idea at best.
I've studied Filipino Martial arts and Krav Maga ( which employs largely FMA knife techniques) and my instructor demonstrated time and again the loss of reach from a reverse grip.
You may pull off cuts and slashes but power cuts to specific target areas and thrusts are what ends knife/sword fights.
Incidentally, my instructor generally mentioned that in a knife fight someone was going to the morgue and someone was going to the emergency room because only in the movies does one walk away unscathed from a fight where blades are used.
If I had to use knife and tomahawk, I'd use the knife point up.
Otherwise I'd just use the tomahawk alone.

The Sicilian

Quite agree. I should have said "point up" vice "blade up" to clarify (in contrast to the Hollywood "ice pick" point down grip. Applegate's own knife design is double edged, so blade up or down ends up being irrelevant. To be clear, though, if I have a single edged blade (which is my normal EDC knife), I would employ blade down as you suggest.

 

[Crewdawg445]

I have seen several movies in which NA...mainly woodland Indians who assume a posture with the Hawk or war club in one hand and a downward pointing knife in the other. (The battle between Wes Studi and Chingachcook in The Last of the Mohicans sure comes to mind.)The latter, I assume was for a sweeping slash or for stabbing down in close quarters. Is this more effective than a thrusting/slashing grip with the blade forward? Or is this just a big dose of Hollywood?

Hollywood BS... While a wonderful movie it is, the style of fighting wasn't as "glorified".

Eastern tribes utilized hit and run tactics, think gorilla warfare. They were VERY effective at it and utilized the elements of suprise more than close hand to hand combat techniques you see in the movies. While they obviously engaged in close quarter fighting on occasion, they still usually had the element of suprise with the foe in a "shock and awe" state which gave the upper hand for swift attacks.

Also contrary to belief they didn't fight with hawks or knives (loosely speaking) as there is evidence of it but little. Predominantly the bagamaagan (war club) was favored by many tribes. They knew the importance of saving their blades edges and didn't risk damaging such a precious accoutrement.

 

[tenngun]

They grew up fighting with other boys and sometimes girls, and played rough games. Older men taught them boys to fight, but I doubt there was anything like a school of fighting. As stated above scream,charge, slash or club, decides if you want to fight or run.
They were not afraid of dieing in battle, but the loss of one person was a national tragedy on par with Gettysburg or D-Day.
How did it look when they fought hand to hand a’la LOM? Anybodies guess. I sure wouldn’t want to fight a real life Magua or Uncas

 

[Sicilian Hunter]

Quite agree. I should have said "point up" vice "blade up" to clarify (in contrast to the Hollywood "ice pick" point down grip. Applegate's own knife design is double edged, so blade up or down ends up being irrelevant. To be clear, though, if I have a single edged blade (which is my normal EDC knife), I would employ blade down as you suggest.

Agreed.
Back to Applegate for a moment, they employ the Fairbain-Sykes grip which I have been taught is a weaker grip as to the thumb placement being place across the guard (A similar knife, the V-42 actually has spot designated for your thumb) instead in what's known by some as a "beer can" grip with all fingers and thumb wrapped around the grip with knuckles oriented in line with the weapon's edge.
Despite what may be said, whether using a knife, sword or stick you shouldn't open your fingers even when rotating the weapon.
We did extensive wrist exercises to strengthen this tenant.

 

[Sicilian Hunter]

Only in Hollywood is a H2H fight choreographed.
Real life fights look like a whole lot of flailing, with little to no grace if it's a short and none at all if it goes on for longer, until somebody backs off or hits the ground.
All of it counted in seconds and not Sam Peckinpah seconds either.

 

[Brokennock]

There is a region in Spain that has a long tradition of the young ladies practicing with their knives on the local cork trees, in a very effective manner, with the point down for much of their "attack." Primary targets when standing being both sides of the neck and both eyes. I'd rather not get into primary targeting if already taken to the ground. Of course this is intended as defensive work.
But from the outset, much of the stuff one sees on back and forth "duel style" blade fighting is b.s. Knife work tends to be down, dirty, and fast, often over before the loser knows it began.
In essence, the blade can be well employed held either way,,,, as circumstances dictate. Stand half an arms length from a tree, imagine your target area, which grip is easier to stab or slash at the gut, which grip is easier to stab at the eyes or neck, what about down through or behind the collar bone, which grip to slash at the neck or throat? Now stand closer, and further, how does this change the preferred grip for a given target? What if the adversary is taller than you? Shorter than you?
Which targets make an adversary not want to play anymore the quickest, what about minimizing your contact with their blood, viscera, and other bodily "fluids"? (It would suck to win that fight only to end up with h.i.v., hepatitis, or worse, if it can be avoided)

These movie fights are choreographed just like the dance moves in music videos and movies/stage productions like "West Side Story." Some are done better than others, but it's still too slow, and too clean.

 

[Sicilian Hunter]

There is a region in Spain that has a long tradition of the young ladies practicing with their knives on the local cork trees, in a very effective manner, with the point down for much of their "attack." Primary targets when standing being both sides of the neck and both eyes. I'd rather not get into primary targeting if already taken to the ground. Of course this is intended as defensive work.
But from the outset, much of the stuff one sees on back and forth "duel style" blade fighting is b.s. Knife work tends to be down, dirty, and fast, often over before the loser knows it began.
In essence, the blade can be well employed held either way,,,, as circumstances dictate. Stand half an arms length from a tree, imagine your target area, which grip is easier to stab or slash at the gut, which grip is easier to stab at the eyes or neck, what about down through or behind the collar bone, which grip to slash at the neck or throat? Now stand closer, and further, how does this change the preferred grip for a given target? What if the adversary is taller than you? Shorter than you?
Which targets make an adversary not want to play anymore the quickest, what about minimizing your contact with their blood, viscera, and other bodily "fluids"? (It would suck to win that fight only to end up with h.i.v., hepatitis, or worse, if it can be avoided)

These movie fights are choreographed just like the dance moves in music videos and movies/stage productions like "West Side Story." Some are done better than others, but it's still too slow, and too clean.

Interesting!
What region of Spain is that?
Curious as to whether those are Basque women.

 

[Brokennock]

Interesting!
What region of Spain is that?
Curious as to whether those are Basque women.

I'm sorry but I honestly don't remember which region of Spain. I didn't learn the info studying Spain, I learned it from Mike de Bethencourt in one of his tactical knife courses. My gut is telling me it's a region near Portugal, but, it's been many years since I took that course.

 

[dave tonge]

It's like the old ghurka who was asked the secret of using his khukri he said I hit him with the cutting edge . What if he,s still coming ? Oh in that case I hit him again lol, I suppose sometimes it doesn't do to over think these things.

 

[Sicilian Hunter]

It's like the old ghurka who was asked the secret of using his khukri he said I hit him with the cutting edge . What if he,s still coming ? Oh in that case I hit him again lol, I suppose sometimes it doesn't do to over think these things.

Dave,
As it is often said, " you will fight like you train, except worse..."

 

[smo]

From what I’ve learned over the years....

Never go too a knife fight, without a gun!

 

[DaveC]

Has anyone ever seen a reference to the use of the so-called "gun stock war club" as used by the Red Sticks in the Creek War?

Scottish dirks were very often used "ice pick" style.

I might recommend Dwight McLemore, The Fighting Tomahawk (op Boulder, CO: Paladin, 2004).

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I've studied Filipino Martial arts and Krav Maga ( which employs largely FMA knife techniques) and my instructor demonstrated time and again the loss of reach from a reverse grip.
You may pull off cuts and slashes but power cuts to specific target areas and thrusts are what ends knife/sword fights.

Interesting..., as I've studied under Dan Inosanto, Kali/Escrima, and the reverse grip on the knife, is quite effective, especially when the opponent is using a hafted weapon such as a club or a hatchet. Like all positions none are fool proof.

As for disarms... ALL grips may be easily disarmed when the disarming person is in the right position. There is no difference from the direction of the blade as the hand is in the same position on the knife handle. In fact with the blade forward, one can (using the proper technique) turn the knife into the user without disarming him first. Either direction has pluses and minuses, and they are equal.

______________________________________________________

Did the NA's have a "martial art" ? Very very tough to tell. Some folks theorize that they must have had some techniques that we today would recognize from other styles that have survived. Others posit that the fact that the whites really didn't arrive in the Americas with such skills, that the NA would not have needed much to have devastating effect at hand-to-hand by simply being ferociously aggressive in the attack.

Hollywood uses previously seldom seen martial arts these days because it looks cool, AND because the trainers and the students use techniques that being familiar require less rehearsal, and less chance at making mistakes which would result in injuries.

LD

 

[Sicilian Hunter]

From what I’ve learned over the years....

Never go too a knife fight, without a gun!

SMO,
That's a Sicilian credo but you forgot to bring your friends and their guns!!!
LOL

 

[Crewdawg445]

Some tribes absolutely do have martial arts. Okichitaw is recognized in Canada as a first nations martial arts.

Also the gunstock club is widely documented, however it's much smaller than the Hollywood version in LOTM. I have recreated one from solid oak off images from a private collection that was from the Iroquois confederacy.

From what I've been told tribes originally used them as a way to process nuts. This information was passed down to me from a tribal elder, however I have never verified that claim to be 100% factual.