Finding a good ball/patch combo

[chrish]

I have a 70's era .50 Hopkins & Allen percussion muzzleloader. Barrel says "black powder only" and "made in spain".

It was given to me as a gift and I tried it out this weekend with Hornady .490 round balls, Traditions pre-seasoned .015 patches, and CCI Magnum #11 caps.

Using Pyrodex RS I am getting 9" groups at 35 yards with charges between 50 and 75 grains. I'm not shooting from a bench, but have no problem keeping tight groups with my shotgun and its smooth bore slug barrel.

I've read that it takes some trial and error to find a good patch/ball combo, but I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be trying and erring on. Where do I go next?

Do I try .495 balls? A different sized patch? Minies? And when I change a variable, do I then start back at, say, 55 grains of Pyrodex doing 5 shot groups and going up in 5 grain increments to see if the groups get tighter?

I'm not sure the rate of twist in the barrel, seems to be about 1:60 as i get roughly a half turn when I run a bore swab down the barrel.

The nipple seems to be fine. It's clean and the gun fires without a problem.

So is there something different to try or am I doing something wrong? :idunno:

 

[Trench]

First, check the condition of the bore. Is it pitted at all or was it well cared for since the 70's? Next, you need to bench that rifle or at least shoot from a rest to see what kind of accuracy you're getting. You've got the right idea about starting low and working your way up in powder charge. Do that with the .015 patch and save the results. Next, go to a thicker patch, say .018 and then do the same thing again.

 

[chrish]

It looks good when I shine a flashlight down it. Should I be using a bore light?

 

[rafterob]

The ball and patch combo you list should be a good start. Work on an efficient load and sight picture next. I usually start with the number of grains = caliber, i.e. 50 grains for a .50 cal. Shoot 5 shots from a rest at a measurable target,aiming dead center. It does not matter where the balls hit as long as you are getting a group. Increase powder charges 5 grains at a time. Typically the point of impact will rise some as charge increases, groups may tighten up or start to spread out. Either keep notes or change targets for each load. I stick with the smallest load that yields the highest point of impact with the tightest group. Then adjust your sights to hit center. Next you can start changing patches and ball size and after 3 years there will still be something you think you can change to make things better. :surrender: I just stick with the .490 ball and whatever pillowticking they sell at Mal Wart.

 

[Leatherbark]

Did I miss it or have you not retreived the spent patches and checked their condition..........They should look as if you could use them again when you have the right combination.

Get you some dry patching such as the Wal mart ticking and try spit.............You will be amazed at the differnce in accuracy...........Bob

 

[chrish]

With the leaves on the ground I could only find one patch. I believe it was from a 75 grain load. It has a little brown patch in the center, then some dark boxes in a circle around the outside from the rifling. No tearing, no holes.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Are you Reading your spent patches?? If not you are just burning powder.

I generally do not trust store- bought, pre-lubed patching. Why? Generally, you can't tell how long the stuff has set in some warehouse, nor at what temperature. The Fabric can deteriorate over time. Next, you can't know what lube is actually used, and that does make a difference. Old patching that looks fine out of the package will tear, and fail in the barrel.

With groups as wide as you indicate, I believe the patches are tearing, or burning up.

Buy some pillow ticking at your local fabric store. Take a micrometer, or caliper with you, to measure the thickness. You want .015 and .018" thick ticking to start. No ticking? Then go to Pocket Drill( #40), denim, or linen. You can do your test shooting with spit, but wash the fabric twice to get the "sizing" out of the fabric. That allows your spit to penetrate through the threads evenly.

Once you have a powder load, and patch thickness, that work with a given ball diameter, you can play around with vegetable based oils and wax to use for lube.

I don't know how old your Pyrodex is, but it can lose its strength over time, particularly after the can is opened and its exposed to air. Stop wasting your time, and money with the substitutes. Buy some real black Powder- 3Fg or 2Fg can work in that caliber.

You have to try both to find out which one your barrel likes best. My .50 cal. rifle likes 2Fg best, for some reason. I know others that shoot the 3Fg powder better. The Barrels tell you what to use. :thumbsup:

 

[BrownBear]

I don't know Hopkins and Allen from George and Gracie, but all my 50's seem to like a .018 patch better than .015 with .490 balls. It's a cheap nuther thing to try. Also, all my 50's also prefer Pyrodex P to RS, usually in the 70-80 grain range. There's some fiddling involved, but it shouldn't take much to tighten that group a whole bunch, even offhand.

 

[chrish]

When buying store-bought/wal-mart ticking, am I to try cutting circles or using a punch or will square patches do fine?

 

[BrownBear]

Square is fine. Just be sure it's 100% cotton and run it through the washer and dryer before you use it, so it will take up the lube right.

 

[gearheart]

Like he said but washing goes before cutting so it won't fray so much. :thumbsup:

 

[chrish]

Any recommendations for a starter lube? Something store bought, a mix of olive oil and (bee's?) wax?

 

[kelleyjk]

+1 on the thicker patch

sounds like its imprinting but tighter patch along and or heavier charge may change your grouping a lot more than you'd think

 

[chrish]

The lone patch I was able to find looked like this. There were lots of leaves on the ground and it was the only one I found. I think it was with a 75 grain load but I'm not totally sure.

 

[William O.]

Any recommendations for a starter lube? a mix of olive oil and (bee's?) wax?

That works well for me, just be careful not to use too much heat when melting the beeswax. I would start with a 9:1 oil to wax ratio, add more BW to stiffin, more OO to make it softer. The final ratio all depends on the temps where you shoot, colder climates require more olive oil but as it warms up you will want to make it less runny. Saturate your patching material in the mix, then pull it through your fingers to squeegee the excess out, store in an empty RX bottle or old 35mm film canister. One last bit of advice is to use traditional black powder if you can find it in your area since it never looses it's power like some substitutes can. If subs are all you can get then I would try Triple 7. You must reduce your powder charge by 15% when using it, so your starting load works out to 43 grains, and don't exceed the maximum with anything.

 

[longcruise]

The lone patch I was able to find looked like this.

That's not a bad looking patch! It apparently is tough enough, but you might pick up some accuracy with a tighter combination.

I recommend that you get three or four possible patch materials from the fabric stores and some .490 and .495 balls. Good starters for patch material are the wally world pillow ticking, wally world duck, maybe some all cotton denim that feels about in between the two and also som JoAnne's fabrics #40 cotton drill. Wash all of them twice.

That gives you eight possible combos of patch and ball. Start with the .490 balls and the thinnest patch material (decide thickness by feeling with your fingers) and work up to the .495 ball and the thickest patch material. If along the way you come to a combo that is too thick to load, then you have reached beyond the size combo that will fit your barrel.

Don't bother reading your targets, but do recover at least three patches from each combo. Use marker pens to mark your patches so as to know which ball size you used with it. Cuts down on confusion. :thumbsup: Shoot all of them with 90 grains of powder. You are not "working up a load" here. You are looking for the patch and ball combo that gives a good "reading" on your fired patches with larger powder charges. Why shoot smaller charges and work your way up only to find that a combo fails at 75 or 80 or 90 grains?

As far as lube goes, some spit or crisco will do. No point testing lubes till you identify a good patch/ball combo.

My last recommendations are to lose the magnum caps and discard your nipple and replace with a new one. Wipe with a damp patch after every shot to maintain consistency.

Hope that helps!

 

[paulvallandigham]

Okay: ON the patch you have shown, its clear that the crown of your barrel is leaving the front of the Lands of the rifling too SHARP, and those lands are cutting half way through the patches- at least on this one. The broad streaks of black that go from the ring to the outer edges is an indication that the patch is TOO thin for the Ball diameter you are using.

Cures: Polish the crown of the muzzle to remove the sharp front edge of the lands;

Use a thicker patch.

As to a vegetable based oil/lube, straight olive oil will work particularly in the colder weather of hunting season. However, if the patch stays in the barrel a long time before shooting, the oil will migrate into the front of the powder charge, and depending on how much of the powder is fouled, your powder charge will vary, and the POI of the ball you fire will change, from the POA. Use a double boiler type arrangement( I put a solid tuna can into a small frying pan with about a 1/2" of water in it, heated to boiling, to melt the wax, and then mix the wax and oil in a percentage ratio that I want. Try a 50:50 ratio, and work from there. Some people put a few drops of liquid soap- like Murphy's Oil soap-- in the wax and oil mix to help emulsify the oil. Check out Stumpy's Moose snot, and Moose milk recipes here on the forum. Find them under " Articles, Charts, and Links, up under Member Resources on the index page to this forum. If you use any wax based lube on your patches, plan on lubing the patches up at least the night before, so that there is time for the oil and wax mix to penetrate fully the fibers in the patch. If you forget to do this the night before, then, before going to the range or field, put the patches, lubed, in your microwave oven, and zap them in 5 second intervals, checking them to see that they don't get too hot. The odor is not going to make you welcome by your domestic supervisor, if you get the lube and patch fabric too hot. :nono: :idunno: :surrender: :hmm:

Square patches work just fine. :thumbsup:

 

[F_Thomas]

I am basically going through the same process with a .54 flintlock. My Great Plains 54 likes .535 and .010 and I am using the same procedure to determine what lube works the best.

On the new rifle my first batch were .535 and .010 and I was burning through the patches.

My next trip to the range will be with .530 and .012 pillow ticking. I am using a 4 to 1 ration Water to Balistol (water soluable oil available from TOW and maybe your local gun shop).

I then go 5/1, 6/1, 7/1, 8/1, and 9/1. I shoot five shots each for group only. Then I determine which gives me the best group and then I have my lube, patch and ball combination.

My patching is from the local fabric shop and is cut in strips and then cut at the barrel when loading. I don't like the pre lubed patches, though they worked for me in the past and I was using T/C Bore Butter.

I am finding it a great learning process and am taking notes as I go to help me better understand this particular rifle.

 

[hoochiepapa]

Very efficient procedure. I like ballistol.
HAPPY VETERANS DAY!! atriot:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Read the spent patches. I suspect that you are not yet using patches that are thick enough. I want a patch that is NO less than .015" thick, and often go up to .018" or .020" to get the right combination of ball diameter, and patch thickness.

Remember, that cotton fibers compress- often the patch will compress 1/3 of its thickness. In rifles, the compressed cotton moves off the lands into the grooves, where it helps make a better gas seal. This is what you want to have happening.

If your patch shows only a brown ring where the ball pushed against the lands of your rifling, you have the proper gas seal. If, instead, you see the brown ring, but also have black, wide, streaks leading from the brown ring, and going on out to the frayed edge of the spent patch, corresponding in width to the grooves of your rifling, the patch is NOT THICK ENOUGH, and is Not providing a proper gas seal in the bore. You are looking at the residue from gas "Blow-by" when you see those black streaks.

If you lube is proper for the powder charge used, the middle of the spent patch will appear white, or light yellow in color, inside the brown ring. The heat of the burning powder either consumes some of the lube in the fabric, or makes the lube migrate to the grooves and lands of the rifling as the ball travels up the barrel. Either way, the result is that the center of that spent patch will be slightly lighter in color than the rest of the patch.