Fine grade of pyrodex in a flinter

[redleg2]

Interesting thread, as I have fired nothing but Pyrodex P as the main charge in my Blue Ridge and other Flinters. Worked just fine for me...

 

[paulvallandigham]

:bull: You are going to have to show me this is true before I will believe it. Pyrodex ignites at a much higher temperature than does Black Powder. A flint lock is going to have a hard time igniting that powder, whether you use it in the pan, or in the main charge. I started looking at Pyrodex back in the early 1970s. It didn't work in flintlocks then, and it doesn't work in flintlocks, now!

 

[dyemaker]

It does work but not often and with a delay. I poured a few grains of blackpowder first in the main charge to fix that too. You are not supposed to mix powders though.

 

[Mulebrain]

Pyrodex, is a byproduct of federal government intervention!

 

[Darkgael]

Paul:

You are going to have to show me this is true before I will believe it.

Geez, Paul, there are two men posting who say that their flintlocks will fire Pyrodex P reliably. What possible reason could they have for making that up? Is there a prize?
Evidently some flint guns will fire the stuff reliably, at least two.
Any time I have tried the stuff, I have used a duplex loading but I'm willing to accept experiences that are different than the norm (innocent until proven guilty.)
Pete

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Pyrodex in a flintlock? Have to agree with Paul. Why wait around for 10 minutes to see if the gun will go "bang". Then again, :hmm: it might.... occasionally? Nah, forget it, it's dead. :dead:

 

[Darkgael]

Va: I know that Pyrodex doesn't work in my flinters and in most shooters. That was not the point of my post. It was Paul's summary disbelief of someone's experience that I found unsettling. Pretty much called the fellow a liar.
And now this drifts away from the topic.....
Pete.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Peter D. I worked with Pyrodex more than 40 years ago, when it was first out. The Can, then, specifically said it wasn't for use in flintlocks, but I had a friend who had a flintlock and didn't like to believe factory warnings, so he tried pyrodex. He had both RS, and P, configurations. Both created hang fires. Neither produced good groups. Occasionally, with RS being worse than P, the flint would not even ignite the Pyrodex.

Since then I have seen many others try using the stuff in flintlocks. It hasn't worked for them, either. Both are slow to ignite, IF they do ignite.

When someone wants to tell me, in person, or on a forum like this that Pyrodox P works just fine in his flintlocks, I am going to challenge him. For all I know, he's a shill for the Company that makes the product!

This site, and the internet does provide more than a little Anonymity, after all. A lot of people with a lot less experience than I Have had are going to read comments like that, and believe it. They will spend good money buying Pyrodex P, and then spend a day struggling to get it to work in their flintlocks. They will be frustrated, and then angry. I don't want that anger turning on this forum, because NO ONE had the decency to challenge these kinds of claims, here.

The most common fall-back for these guys is to admit they use a " booster charge " of black powder in their flintlocks, to get the Pyrodex( or other substitute powder) to ignite. They never send pictures of their targets, unless they are shot at 25 yards, or less. If you are going to use Black Powder as a " booster" with the stuff, why not simply use Black Powder loads, as God intended to be used in flintlocks??? :hmm:

The only honest explanation I have heard to justify using "duplex" loads came from BrownBear here, on a prior thread. He lives on Kodiak Island, and its illegal to fly black powder into the island under federal laws. So, when he is low on black powder, he makes it stretch by using small booster charges in his flintlocks to ignite some other substitute powder that he can obtain.BB does most of his shooting at game- not targets, I gather, so he's not that interested in very small groups. "Minute of deer" are good enough. The brush is so thick on the Island that if he sees a bear, its almost always too close for comfort. Under the circumstances, pin point accuracy is not his first concern.

I hardly would call my response a " Summary disbelief". As to the man being a liar, those are your words. I find a lot of people have no clue how fast a flintlock should be expected to fire- having only information gained from watching old Hollywood movies to tell them this. They actually expect that a flintlock should have along delay in firing. If I thought he was lying, trust me, I would have said so. I didn't call him a liar, because I suspect he just doesn't know better.

If I could be paid $5.00( sorry, inflation) for every BP shooter who has come up to me at the club range to ask me how I get a flintlock to fire so fast, I would own a couple of Mike Brooks rifles! Every time I shoot at the club, I end up with a small group of shooters watching me load my gun, prime it, and shoot it. Some honest express shock that a flintlock can fire " almost as fast as a percussion rifle". Some flintlock shooters come over to ask me what they are doing wrong that is causing the hang-fires, etc.

So, lack of knowledge is the more likely problem when claims like this are made. :hmm: :thumbsup:

 

[Dphar]

Va: I know that Pyrodex doesn't work in my flinters and in most shooters. That was not the point of my post. It was Paul's summary disbelief of someone's experience that I found unsettling. Pretty much called the fellow a liar.
And now this drifts away from the topic.....
Pete.

Perhaps its because it apparently does not work for anyone else???? Heck the stuff is hard to get to light off in some percussion guns (what it was designed for) or so I have read.

UNLESS a BP booster is used its not going to work in a flinter in any sort of reliable basis. In any case black is needed for priming anyway.
So having pyrodex does not mean you can shoot a flintlock BP is still REQUIRED.
Dan

 

[ebiggs1]

That TC Firestorm, I just got, fires it! It is much slower than BP, but it fires it every time.
It will teach you not to FLINCH.

 

[hanshi]

I have a couple cans of Pyrodex but never use it in my flintlocks; in fact, I never use it in my caplocks either. Basically I just experimented with it a little. At the range where I shoot I frequently have guys come up to me and comment on how my flintlock fires as fast as a caplock (we know better but still, who can really tell?). Yes it's fast with bp. Real fast.

 

[Zoar]

duke---I tried fine ground up pyrodex and for me it was a very poor performer in both flintlocks and cap guns.

Why did I try? I guess I just wanted to know for myself.

Black Powder is king.

 

[Coot]

Glad to see that you actually tried it to see what would happen & not surprised to see that it has the same performance issues. I know that logic gets me in trouble but it seems that smaller grain size provides greater surface area to ignite but grain size does not change the ignition temperature. So I would expect a faster burn with higher initial pressures from the smaller grain size but no difference in the temp required for ignition. My own experience with pyrodex is limited to caplocks where the rate of misfires in small caliber rifles (.32 & .36) was much much higher than when using black powder. I say was because the ignition problem was so bad that I gave the pyrodex away.

 

[Billnpatti]

Duke, I've got to go with Paul and the several others who have told you that Pyrodex or any other black powder substitute just will not work reliably in a flintlock. Oh sure, you may get it to go off once in a while or you may be lucky enough to get it to go off pretty often but even when it does go off, it will be slow as heck. I'll tell you straight out that putting Pyrodex in a flintlock is about smart as bringing beer to church. :nono: Here's the bottom line: I know substitutes won't work reliably in a flintlock so I don't use them. But it is your gun and your Pyrodex and if you want to put up with Pyrodex's problems in your flinter in spite of what I, or anyone else has to say, it's your right and you go to it. After all, you're a fellow muzzleleoader shooter and we will all stand by you....or maybe behind you....or at least off to one side. :grin: You'll eventually end up using black powder like the rest of us flintlock shooters. :thumbsup:

That's my opinion on the matter. It's free and worth every penny of it. :haha:

 

[redleg2]

Worked fine for me. I like the softer fouling. Now granted, I'll use goex to prime, but my main charge always has been Pyro-p

 

[Ron_T.]

I've been lurking here for well over 6 months and have particularly read every one of Paul's posts and copied some of them for possible future reference or "refresher-reading" along with many of a couple of other member's posts who are "long-in-the-tooth" with knowledge.

They have helped me get a couple of year's "experience" in only a few months in how to make my flinter shoot each and every time without fail... er... ah... ummm, well, MOSTLY without fail. :grin:

My point is... Paul has had vast experience with flinters and willingly gives us the benefit of his knowledge & that experience. He has proven time after time to be a true friend by doing so... and he does it without malice or any possibility of any kind of payment, so why doubt his integrity and ethics?

While each of us have a right to disagree with another if our personal experience indicates something difference, we still must realize that we have to compare the EXTENT of our "experience" with the experiences that others have had and realize that our experiences in a particular area may be an "exception-to-the-general-rule" rather than being the "norm" to that same general rule.

Like Paul... I've had other BP shooters come up to me at the rifle range and ask how I get my flintlock to "shoot so consistently fast". It didn't always do that... and I had a LOT of "hang-fires" until I read Paul's post on how he loads his flinter and what he does with the FFFFg powder in the frizzen pan & flash-hole.

When I did the same thing, I stopped having hang-fires and/or "mis-fires". "Experience" is a great teacher and it's obvious Paul has had plently of "experience".

Jus' my 2¢... :v


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

 

[TFoley]

Is black powder restricted in the UK? Mel signcutter

Well, yes, it is. It IS a Class 1 explosive after all. Although you are prolly going to tell me that where you live anyone over the age of five who can count to three successfully can toddle into a store and buy half a ton of it for 15 cents, here things are a little different.

Rather like your pal on Kodiak Island.

Or rather, NOT like your friend on Kodiak Island, who can't actually transport the stuff to where he lives, it seems. That's prolly to stop them pesky bears from making fireworks and having a generally good time. :thumbsup:

I CAN buy BP, but I need a permit to do so. It's free and lasts forever.

But then I have to take it home.

So I need a transportation permit.

That too is free, and lasts as long as the other one.

We are then required to store it in a safe, near fire-proof storage container of limited size - surely a sensible precaution, given that BP actually detonates in air, let alone inside a gun barrel.

tac

 

[TFoley]

duke---I tried fine ground up pyrodex

You don't perchance also clean your earwax out with dynamite, do you? :shocked2:

tac

 

[Darkgael]

Ron:

so why doubt his integrity and ethics?

I don't doubt Paul's integrity and ethics. Those were never my point.
Pete

 

[Ron_T.]

Ahhhhhhh...

That's good, Pete. Thanx for clearing that up. :hmm: