Finish?

[macr0w]

Hey guys, I have a question for you.
Let me preface my question with a little background.
I have been a hobbyist/semi professional wood worker for years. I have made lots of different projects from furniture and carpentry to musical instruments.
I have done a lot of finishing of wood with various products with results ranging from wow to let's start over.

So, what I want to know is: What is so special about "gun stock oil or finish"?
How is the product different from other products you might use on something that's not a gun stock?
Also, How is the gun stock itself different? Does it need special material or attention that I just don't know about as a newby?

Please let me know what you think and what advice you could give a guy who's looking to finish his first "gun stock".
Thanks, Mark

 

[bang]

I sand down to very fine paper. Then wet the stock with very hot water then dry with heat gun or steam the stock. This forces the sifter grains up. Then I go over the stock with steel wool to slick off the raised grain. It comes out baby butt smooth.
I use either a cherry, walnut or red oak poly stain. Coat then wipe. Let dry. If you want it flat only put w-3 coats. More will start to shine. Start out light, you can always go darker.

This last one I did in red oak.

 

[macr0w]

Thanks for your reply Bang but, that's not really my question.
I know a good bit about raising grain and grain filling, sanding and applying finish, dry times for different products, etc.

My question is: What is so special about gun specific finishing products such as Birchwood Casey and others for instance?

 

[Buckskinn]

Nothing. If you know wood, you know wood. Other than using ferric nitrate and heat on maple treat it as any other chunk of wood you finish. You probably know more about it than most.

 

[PathfinderNC]

Well, some finishes like TruOil are popular for use in gunstocks and musical instruments (I build Mountain Dulcimers). It seems very durable and you are already probably familiar with it. Tried-and-true. For a gunstock finish though, it needs more weather-protection than a musical instrument or piece of furniture. French-polishing a gun stock (made for general use) wouldn't be so advisable since Shellac and water dont play well together.
For my own rifles though, I use only Boiled Linseed Oil as a finish. Hand rubbed oil finish is beautiful, durable and can be renewed easily. The finish is IN the wood, not On the wood. Also, you will be able to control how much lustre you want in the wood by the ammount of oil that you rub in. I think it's a very old and established finish for gunstocks. I add a few photos of my recent builds (both stocked in Maple); the Verner has more lustre and the Lehigh I left a bit more matted. All determined by the amount of rubbing applications.

 

[macr0w]

Thanks Buck, Since I'm in-experienced with doing a gun stock I wanted to make sure there wasn't some secret science that I don't know about.

 

[Col. Batguano]

There are no special properties those finishes have that you can't get in non-firearms labeled finishes. I'd be willing to bet that they are simply a repackaging of an already existing commercial product. Since a gun is maybe 2 square feet, it will take forever to go through almost any amount you buy.

 

[Old Hawkeye]

Gunstocks are no different than any other wood. Any difference in finishing a gunstock would be about the type or look of the finish you prefer or want. Durability, resistance to chemicals, waterproof characteristics, ease of touching up scratches, etc, etc, are among other things to consider when choosing a finish. My preference is an oil finish, with hardeners & dryers, that goes "into" the wood instead of "on" the wood. Filling the grain (wood pores) is also important.

 

[1950DAVE]

I have never used anything but boiled linseed oil. I refinished my first stock 50 yrs ago this month, an unmentionable, sporterized British , bolt action of WWII vintage. It has been hunted with hundreds of days since and rarely had the finish refreshed. Since then I have typically stripped old varnish/lacquer off any firearms have owned and finished it with BLO. So when I built my GPR close to 10 yrs ago I use it as a finish. Easy to apply, inexpensive, durable, you can find it at any hardware store, easily repaired when scratched. As I stated at first don't know much about modern finishes but I my understanding they are either modified linseed or tung oil with hardeners, dryers, etc.. A few ounces will cost as much as the price of a quart of boiled linseed oil. Any I too was in professional woodwork for many years. 30+ yrs of wood floor install/finish, while doing furniture build/repair/refinish as a sideline and hobby.
Dave

 

[oldwood]

Most guys favor "wipe on ,wipe off" finishes with a good sealer first. BUT, the trick is to use something that will not wash off in wet weather , , and still build thickness w/o a spray booth , etc.. If the finish is too complex in application , generally it will be difficult to fix , if damaged. 50+ years ago , I watched my father apply products like BC Genuine Oil , Linspeed , and other boiled linseed oil products with various amounts of japan driers in them. They were easily repaired, if you have a good knowledge of stains , but most wash off in rainy weather. As you have figured out by now , my criteria is , a maximum sealed finish , "in" the raw prepared and stained wood. Next a number of coats of Gel Polyurethan , wipe-on , no wipe off , until the finish gets the "look" desired. Allow the finish to dry hard,then with a feather touch , go over the finish w/ 0000 steel wool and remove any minute imperfections. This steel wool app. just very lightly abrades the poly surface , and sets the poly finish up for the final wipe-on-wipe -off of any thin sealer finish like danish oil , etc. Last , I apply a couple coats of Minwax Special Dark finishing wax. I know , I know , none of this seems weather proof ,but it's good enough for me , and It's easy to maintain. Also , a word on stains. Most folks seem to like very dark finishes like seen using iron nitrate . I like to see wood grain and the figure in wood , so dark isn't my choice. Chromium oxide finishes , over time , turn green w/a dark hue. Don't like that. So , that leaves custom mixed alcohol stains , Fiebing's. They are super easy to use and replicate any "old gun" , coloration , as well as , if repair is necessary , easily used to repair. I'm not a fan at all of modern ctg. rifle spray on finishes on a m/l. If major damage to the finish happens , it can mean a total PITA , restaining , refinish job. Once alcohol stains are mastered ,using colorations , wood like common butter nut and poor grades of american walnut can be made to look like French , and English walnut. Turkish walnut is much harder to imitate due to it's weight , and grain structure. (Sorry , I got into the weeds. ) Again I stress , this is only one man's opinion. Finishing gun wood is one of those "rabbit hole subjects" , I've been investigating for 50+ years......... Luck to ya.................oldwood

 

[macr0w]

I already have a big jug of 100% pure tung oil. It's my favorite finish on the drums that I build.
I was debating using it since I already have it.
Also, the stock I am working with is American Walnut. I am also debating staining it a little darker first.
I think I should maybe just keep it natural. I always liked wood to be it's natural color in my other projects.
Picture attached just to show some of the other stuff I have built.

 

[oldwood]

Very nice , you're very talented. ..................oldwood

 

[Zonie]

Thanks for your reply Bang but, that's not really my question.
I know a good bit about raising grain and grain filling, sanding and applying finish, dry times for different products, etc.

My question is: What is so special about gun specific finishing products such as Birchwood Casey and others for instance?

I think the biggest difference is, gun stock oils are applied and rubbed in with a rag while furniture and musical instruments etc finishes are usually brushed or sprayed on or sometimes dipped. (I'm not talking about the modern, big factory made guns here. They use the fastest, cheapest method they can find and hand rubbing oil into a gun stock isn't an option for them.)

Also, most original gun's finishes were oils rather than shellac or varnish which are typically found on furniture and musical instruments.

 

[zerosprk]

I think you've got what it takes...

 

[ord sgt]

If you choose walnut for your rifle stock, consider filling the grain of the wood. It will give a smoother appearance to the wood. Then add your finishing oil.

 

[The Crisco Kid]

I think the main difference between "gunstock finish" and Varathane, Minwax Antique Oil Finish, Wipe on poly, etc. is the label on the can. The drying oils like linseed and tung oil are a different animal. There are and always have been combinations of the two, along with a little frog squeezins and a chant on the dark of the moon at midnight. I've tried a bunch of them myself. Alvin Linden years ago said in his book "Stock Making" that you can get a genuine looking oil finish with plain old varnish and he was right. It's all in how it's applied. That's what I've finally settled on with the polyurethanes. What seems a little odd is that some of the best looking finishes I've done have been the ones that I didn't spend hours and hours worrying over.

 

[Sam squanch]

A gun that will be used a lot and hard should have a tough varnish on it. But it will scratch up a bit.

 

[Tomjoad]

@Old Hawkeye is the one on the path of righteousness here.

gunstocks like quality furniture have been oiled for centuries. As mentioned the benefit of this type of finish is it lives in the wood not on top of it. It works to harden and seal the surface but when handling the gun you are still actually handling the wood surface, not plastic. The thing most folks don’t realize about in wood finish (oil) vs. on wood finish (poly, varnish, lacquer) is the oil finishes look better with age: patina vs. any surface finish like a poly. A surface finish looks its best the day completed and after hard use will not take on a patina but instead begin to fail and generally look like hell. Essentially you are applying plastic on top of your wood and just like paint it will eventually start to loose adhesion and fail.

Why have gun makers (and especially the furniture industry) pivoted to poly and lacquer finishes?... they will feed you all kinds of bs about durability and weather resistance but the truth is very simple: money and time. A catalyzed acrylic finish is very fast and easy to apply with the right set-up, stocks can easily be finished even in a single day where as there is no cheating time with oil. Proper oil finishes don’t take an enormous amount of labor but they take months to do properly.

Stains of any sort are an abomination in my opinion. They are only surface deep and will ultimately not help once the gun is developing the a patina as mentioned... any deeper scar will show up glaring as a bright white line. If you want a darker wood go with walnut, if you’d like a blond wood go with maple, let the wood species and character speak for itself: authenticity. All wood will darken over time with handling, finger grease and elbow oil, that darkening should be earned in use not faked in process.

Some tips on oiled finishes: do not “seal or treat” your wood with anything other the oil intended to use, anything like this will prevent oil penetration. Raising the grain is fine with either alcohol or water but it’s not critical to do more than once. Heating the stock or oil or both (not excessively) for initial applications will allow the oil to penetrate much more deeply into the stock. Leave oil on for 10-20 min for each coat but then aggressively buff ALL oil off before leaving to dry. Absolutely no oil should be left on the surface in the process. After 3-4 coats you can start the magic no one is mentioning: wet sanding the oil. Rub on a little oil and then use 600 grit wet/dry paper to go over the entire piece. Wet sanding will create a slurry which will fill all micro pores in the wood. This will get tacky faster than oiling so I generally wipe off in 10 min. Proceed up in grits with each oiling as high as you would like (800-1500). 600-800 will be more satin, 1500 is a mirror suitable for shaving. Finally don’t cheat the drying time between coats. At least 2-3 days preferably a week for me. As you can see this means with 7-10 coats you are looking at a process that takes months to accomplish correctly. No cheating time.

 

[springfield art]

Hey guys, I have a question for you.
Let me preface my question with a little background.
I have been a hobbyist/semi professional wood worker for years. I have made lots of different projects from furniture and carpentry to musical instruments.
I have done a lot of finishing of wood with various products with results ranging from wow to let's start over.

So, what I want to know is: What is so special about "gun stock oil or finish"?
How is the product different from other products you might use on something that's not a gun stock?
Also, How is the gun stock itself different? Does it need special material or attention that I just don't know about as a newby?

Please let me know what you think and what advice you could give a guy who's looking to finish his first "gun stock".
Thanks, Mark

Many guys have secret-sauce finishes, but traditionalists like to use what the old-timers used. Your background places you leagues ahead of most fellows. In general, muzzleloaders don't look right with a polyurethane or slick modern finish. Boiled linseed oil, hand-rubbed tung oil, etc. just match up better with old-time guns. Prepare yourself for scores of responses on this subject! Best of luck! Also, over-sanding to the "nth" degree makes a ML gun look a bit too "slick" to the eye.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Guns in the 18th century were usually finished with an oil-varnish. Usually a mix of linseed oil and some sort of copal varnish. They were not given an "in the wood" oil finish. There is evidence that some American makers such as those within the Lehigh Valley of PA sealed the wood first with shellac, then used a tinted oil varnish on top. Your pistol is military and in truth, the arsenal would have slapped a thick oil-varnish on it and set it aside to dry. You can reproduce the look of almost all old finishes using tung oil, however, it is best to use polymerized tung oil or mix it with varnish or japan drier to vastly speed up drying. I use Sutherland-Welles polymerized tung oil medium gloss. Polymerization is simply a heating process and addition of some solvents to speed drying. Walnut benefits greatly from filling the pores by applying the first coats of finish using 220 grit sandpaper. Build a slurry of finish and saw dust on the surface and let it dry to a crust. Then sand smooth with 320 grit. No need to go higher. Then just apply a few more coats of finish without any sanding and you should be good to go. The original French pistols were stocked in European walnut. American walnut is a poor cousin and often has a cold purple-brown hue. You can make it look close to European and English walnut by first staining the stock with pure yellow aniline dye dissolved in water. That kills the cold purple brown and warms it up. Finally, another secret for walnut is alkanet root stain. I often, not always, use it. My stain is made from powdered root infused in mineral spirits. English gun makers in the 18th and 19th centuries often infused it in oil varnish finish. It brings out figure in walnut and gives it a warm reddish tint. Below are examples of all theses finishes on American and English walnut.

Below are photos of an original English fowler to show they did not use "in the wood" oil finishes even on cheap trade guns.

dave