First chainfire

[Millermpls]

Had a Remington reproduction fire the lower chamber when I touched off a shot. It plowed into the rammer, deforming sufficiently that the cylinder had clearance to keep turning. In fact, I didn't even notice until I unexpectedly didn't hear a 'bang' when i got to the empty chamber. I used 25 grains FFFG, will 8 grains cream of wheat, a lubed patch, .454 ball, topped with bore butter.

This is a brass framed 70s vintage 1858 that I picked up for cheap. This happened on my second cylinder, and I discontinued until I could examine at home. It seems to be OK, but I am new to BP.

Questions:
Did I just turn this into a wall hanger, or is the lead ball so soft that real damage isn't likely in a chain fire?

With the load described, it seems unlikely that this ignited from the front of the chamber (seating the balls was a bear, enough that I think this revolver might want .451 size balls). Is it common that spark enters through a nipple covered with a cap? Is there technique to avoid this?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

 

[Zonie]

IMO, if the loading lever still works like it should and if the front face of the cylinder doesn't have over .020 clearance with the rear of the barrel when the gun is at half cock and the cylinder is pushed back against the recoil shield, your gun is probably still good.

You didn't say if your gun was bought used.

Some time ago, we had a guy who owned a brass framed Colt which he had bought used.
He had a problem with chain fires with it.

To make a long story shorter, it turned out that the gun had been fired with heavy powder loads.
These had slammed the cylinder back against the circular ring on the recoil shield which stops the rearward movement of the cylinder. The slamming had indented the ring to such an extent that the percussion caps were hitting the recoil shield when the gun fired. This fired the caps making the gun chain fire.

I kinda doubt that your gun would do this because of the way the nipples and caps are oriented on a Remington but it's something you should look at.

If there is any metal in the area of the caps that can hit them when the cylinder is moved rearward, that is the problem. It can sometimes be fixed by filing away the metal that would hit the cap but remember, there needs to be material on the recoil ring/shield to stop the rearward movement of the cylinder.

 

[bpd303]

What caps are you using? If they fit loose like #11 caps do or have to be "pinched" to make them stay on I would say they were the cause of the chain fire. The caps should be #10s unless someone has changed the nipples.

 

[Millermpls]

You are correct. It is used, and I am guessing perhaps 70s/80s vintage (Armi San Marco). I had read about the heavy load issue, so I did examine the recoil shield before choosing to try firing, and did not see evidence of damage.

HOWEVER, your suspicion may be correct. When rotating the cylinder on half cock to place the caps, I noticed that the cylinder would bind just slightly as the cap passed the shield. I thought that this might be 'on purpose' as a mechanism to help seat the caps. I had not thought about the cylinder sitting too far to the rear. It seems entirely possible the lower chamber recoiled into the shield and set off the cap. I will give the cylinder gap a measure.

Thank you, I think you gave me the answer (that this is relegated to display).

 

[Millermpls]

Thank you. They were indeed size 11 caps.

So if you 'have to' pinch, bad idea? 10s did not seem very tight either. By the way, I just put a fresh set of Pietta nipples on. The installed set were too large to fit either 10s or 11s. I did not know if there was an older type? Or I have read something about 'magnum' caps, but have not seen any in stores.

Thanks for your comments.

 

[Zonie]

Magnum caps are the same size as other regular size caps with the same number from the same company.

Well, I say that with an "*" by it because there is no actual Standard published for the size and length of percussion caps or the nipples they fit on.
Because of the slight amount of taper on a nipple cone and the variation in different companies caps, some fit and other brands don't.

If you can only find one brand of caps in your area and they are too small to go completely onto the new nipples, you should file or use a whetstone to reduce the cone diameter just a little.

To do this, chuck a nipple in an electric drill, clamping only on the nipple body diameter.
Then, use a fine tooth flat metal cutting file with the drill running slowly to remove just a tiny amount of material.
Try a cap on the nipple. If it can be pushed on until it bottoms out on the priming compound, your done. If it doesn't, run the drill and file a bit more.

Remember, while you do this, just a small amount of material removal will make quite a bit of difference in how far a cap will go onto the nipple before it becomes tight.

 

[AZbpBurner]

As already indicated, flashover from the nipples/caps is the only likely cause of your chainfire.

Your load of 25 gr 3F is a normal load, but you don't really need to complicate things by using grits or cream of wheat in addition to an over-the-powder wad. The purpose of a granular filler over the powder is to be able to seat the ball deeply so as to slightly compress the powder for better ignition/combustion. With really light loads, your rammer may not be long enough to seat the ball deeply enough to compress the powder. You get the same filler effect by using a greased wad alone, between powder and ball.

Additionally, since you already have a greased wad barrier over the powder, you don't have to use grease over the seated balls.

I use 23 gr. 3F with a lightly greased paper wad between paper and powder, and have never had any ignition, flashover or accuracy issues.

 

[nkbj]

Consider the nipple lengths. The revolver being used the nipples may have been changed out and now a smidgen longer than they should be.

 

[Millermpls]

Thank you, gentlemen, for the additional feedback.

Indeed, the intent on the filler was provide compression and to end up with the ball closer to the forcing cone. The chambers can accommodate a lot of powder.

 

[Ken Cormier]

Thanks for the info now got to check my new pistol.

 

[Zonie]

GoodCheer makes a good point.

There are basically two lengths of nipples used on percussion guns.

Rifles and single shot pistols use a long nipple while cap & ball revolvers use a short nipple.

The threads are the same size and about the same length on both types of nipples but the cone on the rifle/single shot pistol are much longer than the c&b nipples.

If someone ordered and installed the rifle length nipples in the revolver it could easily chain fire when the cylinder recoils from the shot.

A rifle nipple will measure about .470 (figure about 7/16") from the shoulder where the threads start to the end of the tapered cone.
A C&B revolvers nipples measure about .320 (figure about 5/16") from the same location to the end of the cone.

 

[Millermpls]

Thanks for the additional thoughts. They are indeed the shorter revolver nipples.

And indeed upon examination, the cylinder appears to be set back some. I think I have the answer.

Thanks to all for the education. I appreciate you taking the time to help.

 

[don hepler]

This has been a very informative and good post.

Thanks, and good luck.

 

[Flintfan69]

Did I read your initial post correctly, that you used a "patched" round ball? Not sure if you meant a fabric patch around the ball, or a lubed wad that is chamber size. If you are describing loading a ball the same way as you would in a muzzleloading rifle, that step is not necessary, i.e. placing a circular patch on the face of the cylinder and then placing the round ball on top of it before seating.

Percussion revolvers are always loaded with a "naked" ball (or conical bullet). Try the .454 balls again without that patch and loading should be much easier. Everything else in your loading sequence sounded correct. You may find that the cream of wheat is unnecessary as well. That is an accuracy issue. Do some shooting with and without it, and see what kind of accuracy you get. If it's the same either way, it's another step that can be eliminated.

Again, neither one of these issues has anything to do with the chain fire you experienced, they are just some tips that might help you out.

Good luck

 

[crockett]

Since it is a Remington Frame it ought to be okay unless there is obvious damage.
I never thought about the cylinder slamming into the recoil shield and a too long capped nipple striking and exploding.
Was the cap still on the nipple of the faulty chamber?
If so, did the cap explode when you pulled the trigger on that chamber when in battery- aligned with the bore or was it already exploded?

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

If memory serves correct, the guy with the recent chain fire story & dented brass recoil shield also had LONGER than normal nipples.....

Now if we could just get Ampco Treso to set an industry standard for Colt & Remmy replicas we'd be onto sumthin', lol!

Any luck gettin' yer pistols back? I'm still feelin' yer pain & just wanted to wish you well old friend!

Dave

 

[Millermpls]

Thank you, Forrest. I did indeed mean a lubed disc. I appreciate your thoughts.

 

[Millermpls]

Hey Crocket.

The cap was detonated, stuck to the nipple. It received a second strike when it aligned to the barrel.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

thanks be that you still have forefinger and thumb.

 

[crockett]

Well if it was detonated it had to have slammed back against the recoil shield. This is an entirely new situation I haven't thought about before. A lot of folks take out the nipples in cleaning a revolver, if you didn't screw them back all the way- potential problem.