First shot always a flyer problem...

[olskool]

sir, you say "I'm also running a business so time is valuable." like I said tuning the rifle and shooting good groups takes "valuable time" you get out what you put in, nothing else. if you can't get a good rest and take your time then pie plate groups is all you will ever get,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[Loyalist Dave]

... I'm shooting a Lyman 50cal great plains. It's been awhile on the twist. I believe it's the universal twist 1:48 if not mistaken. I've shot balls and patch and roughly same result. When I shoot I didnt put it on a stand I've been using a shooting stick......But the first shot always seems low and off plate. …..

AHA!
So a removeable barrel,
You get the same results with both round ball and conical,
and it seems that you get a low flier.... when using a shooting stick...

There is a remote possibility that your barrel is not as tightly seated as it needs to be when you replace it after cleaning. I've seen it once before, and the first shot would seat the shooter's plains rifle barrel downwards but in so doing it also threw the first shot low too. It was tough to figure out as one expected the barrel to want to move up during recoil. I don't think that's necessarily what is happening with yours.

If you get the same results from both conical and patched round ball, and the results even when fouled from what you report, are not good, I think your patching and the base of the conical are as Brockennock wrote, not completely filling the grooves in the barrel. IF only a few of the grooves are slightly too deep for your patching and the skirt of the conical, gas will only escape around a small portion of the circumference of the rear of the bullet.. This will then "push" the first shot off target, but the fouling will help to correct that in the subsequent shots. Help to correct BUT not eliminate the problem....

The other thing it sounds like is a FUBAR barrel crown. IF the edge of the surface of the actual barrel is wrong, again, it will push the ball off target. That's pretty easy to correct, if it's that.

So, you will need some sort of table and something like sand bags or a stand to give you a consistent platform to test the rifle. Shooting sticks should be used in the field at this point.

You should try loading some .50 caliber wool wads between the powder and the patched ball. Same with the conical. https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/001065000/50-caliber-lubed-wool-wads-(100-pack) Try it with one, and try it with a pair. They act as a gas seal, and I think may be the key to what you're after. I've also seen folks load 30 grains of cornmeal over the powder and under the conical, and I've seen folks load the cornmeal, followed by a lubed wool wad, and then load the bullet. See if that doesn't really tighten your groups.

LD

 

[Boomerang]

Do you have the Great Plains Rifle or the Great Plains Hunter? The GPR has a 1:60 twist and the GPH has a 1:32 twist. The GPR is meant for round ball and the GPH for conical for all practical purposes. First off I would get rid of the bore butter. There are much better options including a plain old spit patch for round ball. If you have the GPR, you need to check your patches after you shoot them to see if there are any tears or holes in them. Then we can go from there.

 

[SDSmlf]

Congratulations on your first deer with a flintlock. That puts you ahead of a lot of hunters.

Now let’s improve your accuracy. As Boomerang suggested, I believe figuring out which Lyman’s gun you have should be your first step. If you have the GPR and it’s 1-66 twist barrel, you can shoot the Lee REAL bullets accurately, but it can be much more challenging than shooting around ball in it. If you have the GPH and it’s 1-32 barrel, it should shoot the Lee REAL quite well, but shooting round balls would likely require a light charge for accuracy.

Step one, what gun and twist rate do you have?

 

[Grenadier1758]

I don't think that the storing of a rifle with Bore Butter is the best unless you really clean it out with a wet alcohol soaked patch before shooting. For the first shot, the dried Bore Butter from storage isn't cleaned out and the bullet doesn't engage the rifling properly for the first shot. Also being that you have a hooked breech rifle, the barrel isn't getting settled in place properly until the second shot. A very slight bend to the wedge may help pull the barrel down and a smack on the muzzle with a plastic coated dead fall hammer may settle the barrel in place. It could well be that you have a leaded bore from shooting the conicals all these years. Perhaps trying the 250 grain REAL conical bullets may suit your rifle better.

 

[biliff]

I believe figuring out which Lyman’s gun you have should be your first step.

It appears this was all hashed out over a year ago. Long thread, good luck figuring it out. https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/50-cal-not-hitting-broadside-of-barn.108565/

 

[Rat]

But wait a minute, the quest for better accuracy is a noble cause, and endeavor, but, it is still normal for a rifle to shoot low, or high, from a clean barrel. I don't think load development will change that. That is why all my rifles are sighted to be on with the first shot, and then I just take note of where my follow up shots go. And with an accurate rifle, that dispersion will be very very small.

Obviously, with a minute of pie plate rifle, that dispersion will be much greater. Either way, sight in with a clean barrel. Not "wiped", but clean.

Then and again, you guys are correct in thinking that the accuracy issue should be addressed before the rifle is finely sighted in. Still, I would sight the rifle so that the first shot from a clean barrel hits the plate.

And on the other hand, in reality, although we all strive for much better accuracy, at whatever range you can keep all your shots on a pie-plate, is the range that you can put your shot into the heart-lung area or zone, of a deer.

 

[Bad Karma]

@Rat is nailing it. You need to determine two things. 1st. What is your clean barrel point of impact and B. What is your clean barrel accuracy. It’s time consuming to answer these questions but if a clean kill is important to you it’s all you can do. That or find a different rifle, some don’t exhibit such a drastic difference from clean to fouled.

 

[Casem4]

It's the hunter I believe. Cause it sure isnt the 1:66 twist. And biliff is correct to a point nothing was hashed out. Only honed. I've come to realize that I am the only person I know that messes with black powder. So from the moment i decided it interested me I've got this far from this forum and pure trial and error. I certainly dont have a teacher of this. And now I'm the poster child for the other hunters in my circle. Especially when success finally happened. So again I appreciate everything not only for my gun but for the half dozen more guns sure to follow. The love of this sport is only growing with the frustration that comes with it.

Now on the pins someone send to bend them. Do you bend them in the middle or what. Cause I did notice that they are tight but I always wondered if they werent sitting right

 

[SDSmlf]

I've come to realize that I am the only person I know that messes with black powder.

You may want to add your general location to your profile. There may be somebody living close by that is on this forum and could possibly provide some hands on mentoring, or know of a nearby shooting club. Traditional muzzleloader shooters tend to be a helpful group.

 

[Grenadier1758]

While I mentioned that bending the wedges might pull the barrel more securely in the bore, you have very slightly to be careful after very slight bending in the middle to ensure that the wedge always goes in the same place on the barrel and mark which side is up. Others will tap the center of the wedge loop on the barrel. This is something that is very slight tapping. If your present wedges are tight, they are very close to being right.

You might be well ahead by concentrating on first shot placement in a clean barrel.

 

[stikshooter]

Flyers could be nothing more than lack of a card/wad under the Lee Real ,I never leave home with out it ! And definitely shoot off bags to prove it,works for me/Ed

 

[Brokennock]

Another vote for ditching the bore butter. Also, a dry patch is not enough to get rid of it. Swab several times with alcohol, I do it before I even leave the house to head for the range. If going out hunting, I clean with alcohol then load the gun the night before.
I agree that load development won't completely cure the 1st shot out of the gun being outside the rest of the group, but, I do think if we can help you develop a load,and cure whatever else is causing greater than 2 to 3 inch groups, it will pull that "flier" 1st shot in to within a couple inches of the rest of the group.
It still seems to me that you are not getting enough of a gas seal, and an inconsistent gas seal. Try a wad or hard card between the powder and patched ball or conical.

 

[Rat]

Nock is right, the more accurate the gun is, the less spread there will be between the first, and follow up shots. With very fine accuracy, it won't even matter for hunting. For paper punching, it will just open the group up an inch or so, but for paper punching you'll shoot from a fouled barrel anyhow.

I've been shooting the REAL for years. I use a minimum of lube, just a little SPG on either the bottom, or top lube groove, and either two wonder wads under the bullet, or one wax wad over the powder, and then a wonder wad on top of that. My rifles prefer a minimum of lube, but they are all shallow groove rifling, so your results may vary!

A hard-card over the powder wouldn't be a bad idea, to keep the lube in the wonder wad from contaminating the powder, which it will do over time. A hard card and one wonder wad, or lubed felt wad, would probably work well, although I've never tried it so just guessing.

And easy way to make a wax wad is to get some bee's wax melted in a glass container, either in the microwave, or a double boiler, and then just drop a felt wad, or wonder wad, in, and fish them out with a sharp, pointed object. Put them on wax paper to cool. Don't add oil or anything else to the bee's wax. And, I wouldn't suggest any kind of wax other than bee's wax. Them Bees know how to make the best wax, by far, hands down. They have a secret recipe.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Sounds like a classic bedding issue and/or rough cut rifling to me.
Classic.

 

[Griz44Mag]

Still, we need more information on the gun. Brand, barrel, barrel twist, caliber, etc.....
You may be shooting the wrong thing out of it. A conical in a long twist barrel will not shoot well.

 

[Artificer]

So first off it finally happened. Took 5 years but finally downed a deer with the flintlock. Thanks for the advice that got me there. But now I have another issue I'm trying to resolve. I've made lots of adjustments so where I'm at now is 80grains of 2f with Lee real bullet 320 grain with a beeswax/crisco lube.

The problem is the first shot always seems to be low and who knows where it goes half the time. Soon as its dirty couple swabs in between shots and a pie plate at 50 yards looks like swiss cheese. But my first shot is typically the first shot on a deer with a clean rifle. So if anybody has ideas I would greatly appreciate the advice.

Hi Casem4,

First, how many rounds have you shot out that rifle total? If you are not shooting much, the barrel might not even be properly broken in, even in 5 years. It isn't how long you have had or shot it, it is how many rounds you shot out of it. If the barrel is not broken in or leaded up, then it might be time to use some JB Bore Paste on a piece of Chore Bore Brass/Bronze scrubbing pad. The idea is to get rid of any burrs or sharp edges on the rifling.

https://www.amazon.com/J-B-Non-Embe...OW/?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid={creative}&hvpos={adposition}&hvnetw=o&hvrand={random}&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl={devicemodel}&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583451663501765&psc=1

and:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41GiVitGylL._SY300_QL70_.jpg

Next, do you know how to check the Rifling Twist on your rifle? You can do that with a tight cleaning patch, your wood ramrod and pencil. Run the tight patch down the bore to the bottom, mark the top of your cleaning rod with the pencil right at the muzzle, then slowly pull the ramrod out until the pencil mark is on the dead bottom of the rod. Stop pulling the rod and measure how far the ramrod moved. Double that measurement and you have the rifling twist.

I agree with others you still have to do some load development work to get that rifle to shoot to its potential.

Besides the natural problem of a rifle with a take down barrel not going to shoot to the correct point of aim on the first round after you pull the barrel to clean it, if the barrel is loose in the forearm, that will also cause a loss of accuracy. After about 400 rounds in my old .50 TC Hawken, I had to glass bed the stock channel for the barrel to stop that problem.

One final note. A Rifle with a broken in barrel, excellent load, tight fit of the barrel in the stock, proper cleaning before the first shot and everything else done right might STILL might shoot the first shot low. If it isn't too much like an inch or so, no problem for hunting deer and other medium to large game. However that much drop or more won't do for shooting small game like rabbits and squirrels. Then you will have to shoot a fouling shot in the field before you begin hunting.
Gus

 

[Walkingeagle]

All he has to do is READ the barrel of his Lyman Great Plains and report back to us if it SAYS “Great Plains Hunter” or “Great Plains Rifle”. That will tell us the rate of twist and rifling depth. Then we can provide more assistance. No need to confuse issues beyond that at this time.
Walk

 

[Rat]

If it's anything like the barrel on my Plains Pistol, it requires a book mark to read the whole thing.

 

[Casem4]

It's the hunter. And I must have been doing something wrong when I figured the twist out. I was getting 1:48 previously. But 1:32 is the book on it. I know in my prior years I was using wheel weights and didnt realize that it wasnt pure enough lead. So since I still had weights I fluxed them around 4 times with beeswax until i could get a finger nail to mark it easily.

My next experiment is gonna be getting pure lead and see if that could be part of it. At this point I think the bore butter is going in the trash. What is the recommended barrel lube for storage? I also think I might want to try those wads. I often wondered if it was a gas issue.

And to answer the rounds down range. Well over a hundred rounds.