First time firing my flintlock - Help!!!

[jaydee4570]

Well, I fired my flintlock for the first time this weekend (I'm a long time percussion shooter.) It is a beautiful 45 cal Hatfield rifle, that was unfired until now. First 3 shots were great fun, and everything seemed to work great. After the third shot though, the main charge (50 grains of FFg) refused to go off, though the primer charge of 4F fired every time (Which made me quite happy.). When I got home I pulled the touch hole liner, and the powder looked rather damp. I did wipe between shots, and I tried to squeeze all the excess solvent off the patch before wiping, then used two dry patches to dry the bore. This rifle has a powder chamber that is smaller than bore diameter just in front of the touch hole liner. Obviously solvent or moist fouling was being pushed back into the powder chamber, where the patches couldn't reach, and this dampened the main charge preventing it from firing.

The question now is what to do. Do I not wipe between shots? Do I wipe between shots and then wrap a patch around a 22 caliber bore brush to clean and dry out the powder chamber? One friend suggested simply dry-brushing between shots. Any suggestions would greatly be appreciated!!!!

The rifle is one of Ted Hatfields flintlocks with a beautiful maple stock, and is a beautiful rifle over all. Fitting and finishing is relatively good. The lock seems to work quite reliably. The bore is a bit rough (This is one of the early rifles where the parts were made in Italy and then sent to Missouri for fitting and finishing.) but it doesn't cause any problems. I just want to figure out what I need to do to keep it firing reliably.

Thanks!!!

 

[Stumpkiller]

First off: welcome to the forum.

A few background questions.

1.) How are you lubing the patch around the ball?
B.) Are you oiling or greasing the gun when cleaning? If so, how are you removing that oil/grease before shooting?
III.) Did you remove the packing grease & oil before your first shot?

You certainly should not have to remove the vent liner between shots. You should not have to dry brush, or dry patch after a moist patch. Let me know your answers to the above three questions and I'll give you my guesstimate of the problem.

 

I dislike patent breeches for just this reason. I have never encountered one that would not eventually do what you are discribing.

You can cure it several ways. Stumpkiller has given you a place to start.

I have found one of the best cures to be one of the oldest.

Tow on a patch worm. No lube, no moisture. just use the abrasive nature of the tow to clear the fouling.

The second best cure is a DAMP patch on a patch worm. Not wet, just damp, and use a worm, not a jag.

A cleaning jag and patch will force the fouling into the chamber and compress it there. It always looks moist when you finally get to it.

The patch or tow on a worm will clear the fouling and it may get into the chamber, but it is not compressed to harden and block the flash. It sort of burns out as you go.

Fouling in a patent breech is like concrete to remove. I had a friend buy a Blue Ridge rifle that had the same problem a couple of months ago. We finally had to build a chamber sized scraper to break up the fouling.

Amazing what you can do with drywall screws!

:thumbsup:

 

[jaydee4570]

Stumpkiller,

The patches are lubed with Bore Butter.

I oil the bore after cleaning, but am very careful to remove all traces of oil prior to going to the range, so that isn't a factor.

I thoroughly cleaned the rifle after I bought it. It didn't have any packing grease, etc.. in it. I've been shooting percusion rifles for 25 years, and am very careful to see that all traces of oil are removed prior to firing.

I appreciate the help!!!

 

[roundball]

Been shooting patent breech rifles for almost 15 years and never had an instance of a cleaning jag pushing fouling into the patent breech causing a problem...indeed, by design, a patent breech normally ensures that won't happen.
I shoot patent breech flintlocks every Saturday, 40 shots in a row without wiping between shots (using Goex & bore butter) never had a problem with fouling like that, never use a vent pick, etc.

And your first shot would have failed if oil in the breech was the problem so that's not it.

In spite of your feelings that your patches weren't too wet, I'd bet that's the problem...this is a new rifle and your jag / patch may fit it just a little tight enough to be squeezing some dampness out of a couple patches even though you might think they feel OK to the touch...your other rifles may not have done this.

I've noticed one or two of mine are more sensitive to this than others, and I can see a trace of moisture compressed out of a couple patches right onto the edges of the muzzle as I begin pushing the patches in...combine that total from two patches, and consider the patent breech has a cone tapering down to a very small point inside the vent liner...only takes a drop to kill that tiny bit of powder behind the vent...and you said it looked damp.
:m2c:

 

[jaydee4570]

Ghost,

The Blue Ridge rifle is a direct copy of the Hatfield, and supposedly parts are interchangeable.

I will give some of your suggestions a try. I'll have to find a slightly smaller patch worm to fit in the patent chamber.

Do you think that dry brushing might be a reasonable alternative to using a damp patch between shots?

Thanks!

 

[madstone]

JD,
These fellers ain't leadin' you astray, they know lots more than I do. And, they shoot more than I do! But the critical point is 3rd shot!! (I kin count thet far an tipe with the other hand) Shooting percussion all that time you know "it's not just a flintlock". Some Eye-talian (Cleveland?) feller left a big blob of grease "down there" that I certainly wouldn't have found! OR Your wet, buttered, patches saturated the chamber beyond the dry patch getting it all? OR "Stuff" happens! The "boogers" often do this to me. or the wee folk? Black powder draws moisture like a red light draws sailors! Was yer FF horn tight? It might have managed to get off two and the damp powder finally refused under the weight of the pre-existing grease. Does "bore butter, like most greases, turn liquid and run down the chamber? gather in insideous , unseen "places"? If you use lots of "butter' it works great for perc caps hot fire but not for the even partially obstructed vent "flash" of FFFF? Just rambling, Sorry! :sorry:
My wife, "Mother Williams" is out of the room and I can confess to using really hot water, and her dish soap, to clean my BP barrels !!! All, signs of any grease, or fouling, are removed but you better get oil on it fast! I use a tight patch to slosh the soapy hot water back and forth up the barrel and brush the breech's face. You can leave the vent liner in! I know you know this already, but do you know how to get the "mess" out of "mother's" tub!!

 

[Stumpkiller]

If you're not over-slobbering the bore butter (the best method is to lay a strip of tic on a piece of glass and smear the lube on with a putty knife - leaving just what stays in the weave on the outside as you squeege it firmly. When I used it I would just rub some on the barrel side with my thumb. I am going to guess that your cleaning jag does not match the shape and restriction of the patent breech. If your jag has a step in it, as the T/C versions do, then that probably isn't the problem. If your jag is parallel full length, it isn't getting down all the way to the breech. Drop the rod in without patch, mark the depth, and then withdraw it and hold it outside the barrel to see where the jag ends up. If it's not past the vent you need to reshape the jag. Try it with and without patch - maybe yourcleaning patch material is too thick and the jag can't squeeze all the way in?

The wiping patches should be damp, but not sopping wet. I use a little 1 oz. bottle and put the patch over my finger pad, cover the 1/2" hole in the bottle tip, tip the bottle upside down and then draw the patch along between my finger and bottle, tipping the bottle upright again at the end of the patch. This mostly squeezes the excess out.

The only other thing I can think of is to probe the vent with a feather quill or a copper wire of vent size to make sure any fouling crust is knocked away, giving the flash access to the powder.

Let us know how you make out.

 

[jaydee4570]

Stumpkiller,

You are correct that the jag does not match the patent breech. The patent breech on my rifle seems to be rather narrow and long...... I would guess that is is about .32 to .35 cal. and about 1.25 inches long. Even the 3/8 inch bare ramrod does not fit into the patent breech I don't know what kind of jag you could find that would reach the bottom of it. So far I've been using a 22 cal. bore brush with a patch wrapped around it.... not perfect but seems to work. If you happen to have an idea of how to find or make a jag to fit this type of barrel / patent breech I'd be grateful because I just don't see how to do it.

The patched ball doesn't even get close to the flash hole with this size patent breech, so I don't think the lube is a problem. I use a welding torch cleaner to pick the flash hole, so there is a clear path to the powder. I believe my problem was that I was using too wet of patch to wipe the bore, and when the patch hit the mouth of the patent breech it was squeezing out moisture into the patent breech, and that moisture wet the powder charge when I dropped it in.

I think that I will first try simply dry brushing between shots. Then I will try wiping between shots but use much less solvent and try to stop the rod before the jag contacts the mouth of the patent breech. I also opened the flash hole in the touch hole liner to 1/16 inch diameter.

If any one has a good idea or technique for cleaning out the patent breech, I'd be grateful to hear about it.

I'm thankful for all the help!!!! I've been lurking around this forum for a long time, and I know there are a lot of very knowledgeable shooter here. I'll try to get out to the range soon to try again.

Thanks to all!!!!

 

[Stumpkiller]

Oh yes, lube is a problem. When you fire, it (and the fouling) coats the bore. When you push in the nest ball you push fouling and lube ahead of the ball, down to the breech. If you are wiping with a non-fitting jag, you are making it even worse by pushing wet crud down into the combustion "chamber" That is 100% the problem. You need to make or buy a properly fitting jag OR wipe with a wad of tow between shots. The tow can me pulled out ahead of the jag so it bunches up and fills the patent-breech cavity. Take a big strip of grocery bag and wet it and jamb it into the breech (use a ball puller or patch worm inside the wad. Press it in HARD and let it set a while. Pull it out carefully - and that is the shape of the jag you need to buy or form. You can chuck the jag in a drill (drill press better yet) and form the shoulder with a file. If you are lucky, it will be approximately the same as T/C's design, and you can just buy one. Someone here may know.

If you are content to use the brush - try a larger one, like a .38 caliber. The .22 is too small. You can also stick a patch over the brush, and it will automatically form to the breech. BUT BE SURE that the brush you use is not the centire-fire type that just has the end stuck in the threaded tip. That will pull out and you'll be seeing Mr. Gunsmith. ALWAYS us a brush formed by having the wire threaded through a hole in the threaded end and then formed (called a "looped and wound shank").

YES

NO

Actually, Roundball suggested a trick to get a seperated brush back out. Drive a brass tube down over it to collapse the bristles into the tube. Schmardt! Easier to just use the looped brush.

 

[roundball]

Actually TC discontinued it's two step jag design years ago.

All I ever use are standard caliber size cleaning jags and they all stop on top of the patent breech. There are only two times when I go down into the patent breech:

1) When I'm at the range in extremely humid weather, the fouling turns to soup in there just like in the pan, so every 10 shots or so I slide a regular cleaning rod down in there with a dry patch wrapped around a .30cal rifle brush to soak it up;

2) When I'm back at the house thoroughly cleaning the rifle, I rotate a cleaning brush in there, then a dry patch in there, then a lubed patch in there using the patches around the small brush.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Actually TC discontinued it's two step jag design years ago

:shake: I've owned 5 T/C M/L's. The last two I bought new in 1982 and 1989 respectively. * sigh * Next you'll be telling me Bear has discontinued the glue-on Razorhead and I won't be able to get DuPont blackpower when I finish this last can of my FFFFg.

You would think things would stick around longer in a "traditional" passtime?

 

[roundball]

:crackup: :crackup:

And on that note, I've come to realize that TC seems to have a track record of not making the same thing for a very long time other than a couple of ML's like the Hawken and Renegade.

I don't know if it's just their particular marketing strategy or they just don't have strong convictions about the fit of certain things in the marketplace so they won't make long term investments in any particular direction...dunno.

But just like those tapered cleaning jags, they come out with stuff all the time then discontinue it a couple years later...polymer covered fiberglas range rods are the best thing since sliced bread...don't have to use a muzzle guide with them, etc...are they still in production? NO!
.45cal round ball barrels...still in production? NO!
.58cal round ball barrels? NO!
Still using top quality wood on their Hawkens? NO!
Special runs of gorgeous Hawken "Cougars" and "Silver Elites"...parts available? NO!
Darndest thing I've ever seen.

Each and every rank & file employee I've spoken with at TC Arms and Fox Ridge all agree the .45cal 1:66" round ball barrel should never have been discontinued, should remain in production but they don't make the decisions...a new one still in the box recently sold on EBay for $300..just the barrel!

FWIW...Green Mountain knows there's a market for a 15/16" .45cal Hawken drop-in Flint barrel and told me they're bringing one out in the spring for $225.

I'm a dedicated TC fan and at my age will probably stay with them right on, but I swear sometimes I don't understand them at all...must not see the big picture

:shocking:

 

[jaydee4570]

Roundball,

I guess using a patch wrapped around a brush is probably the way to go. So far I've used a 22 cal brush with a large thick patch, but I think I'll try a 30 cal brush with a slightly smaller thinner patch. I'll also try not wiping between shots. Not wiping works for you, I would think that it should work for me too (I live in western Washington state, and it's usually not to dry here !!!!).

I sincerely appreciate all the help!!!

 

[RussB]

Roundball,

I guess using a patch wrapped around a brush is probably the way to go. So far I've used a 22 cal brush with a large thick patch, but I think I'll try a 30 cal brush with a slightly smaller thinner patch. I'll also try not wiping between shots. Not wiping works for you, I would think that it should work for me too (I live in western Washington state, and it's usually not to dry here !!!!).

I sincerely appreciate all the help!!!

JD2, I also live in Western Washington, and I recently gave the Roundball method a try. I got more shots w/o cleaning, using his method, than I ever had before.
All of my hunting this year, up to this point, has been with my smoothbore chasing that mythical little bird know as Grouse,
As you probably know, this unexpected rain we've had this month has taught the Grouse how to do the back stroke... uphill, and pickings have been slim.
I've still managed a few range days, even when raining. So let's just say Roundball's method has survived the test. And I expect to try it again during "rifle" season. :results:
Russ

 

[Stumpkiller]

All of my hunting this year, up to this point, has been with my smoothbore chasing that mythical little bird know as Grouse. . .

Just this month I agreed to take part in a "long term survey" sponsored by the state to monitor grouse populations. Could be related to my shamefully expired membership in the Ruffed Grouse Society. I told my wife "I am now licensed by the State of New York to kill grouse. Just have to get out more and hunt often. It's my duty as a conscientious citizen."

By coincidence, my "Honey Do" list immediately moved to a more conspicuous spot on the message board.

 

[jaydee4570]

Russ,

Nice to hear Roundball's method of shooting without wiping works even here!!!!

I plan to spend Thursday looking for the same mythical little birds........ I hear rumors that they once existed in Washington........

John