Fitting To some Pietta Chambers

[nkbj]

Was checking out a Pietta .44 with 4 3/4" barrel.
All six chambers measure .450" just inside at the front and .446" when reaching down inside about 5/8".
Using the RCBS 45-225-CAV sized .450" diameter and then sizing the back ring .443" gives a bullet length of .65". That will let the bullets seat in dirty chambers and not be too hard to press in with that stubby little loading lever. Will have the sides of the bullets loaded up with lube to prevent flash over and not need to lube in front.
It's probably gonna hit way high but well, will just have to see how she shoots.
Got the slugs made up. Maybe sit on the front porch tomorrow and put some smoke into a thunder storm.

 

[nkbj]

Instant bummer. Can only use the bullets in the Remington but not the 1851 style .44 like I wanted.
The bullet not being the heavy clothing penetrator style conical ogive like the military used, there's not quite enough room to get the bullets passed the frame and into the chambers without loading the cylinder disassembled from the revolver. Wanted to try out the old Lyman 454613 hollow base heavy round nose in the Remington but that can wait.

 

[Zonie]

Seems to me, that .65 long bullet is about .20 longer than a .45 ball. If that's the case, the space for the gunpowder under the ball will be reduced by about that much if the bullet is loaded instead of the ball.

In a .450 diameter chamber, that's about equal to 9 grains worth of powder so the normal 30 grain load would need to be reduced to about 21 grains.

Now, 21 grains of powder still has a lot of power but I'm betting that between the reduced powder load and the increased weight of the bullet the velocity will be greatly reduced.

I know that playing around with different loads is fun but in this case I'm wondering if these bullets are a step forward or maybe backwards?

 

[rodwha]

Initially, thinking my Pietta NMA would have the slow twist as was claimed by that brand, I had a custom mold made creating a 195 grn bullet that’s just .460” long, roughly the length of a ball. Also a shorter .400” version made, and what I found was that despite the projectile used, including .457” balls, that 30 grns of either 3F T7 or Olde E (which weighs ~33 grns) that this more accurate powder charge never changed. Now what I intend to do is modify my design a bit to include filling most of the excess space by lead lengthening the projectile. Figure this will weigh 205-220 grns.

 

[nkbj]

Seems to me, that .65 long bullet is about .20 longer than a .45 ball. If that's the case, the space for the gunpowder under the ball will be reduced by about that much if the bullet is loaded instead of the ball.

In a .450 diameter chamber, that's about equal to 9 grains worth of powder so the normal 30 grain load would need to be reduced to about 21 grains.

Now, 21 grains of powder still has a lot of power but I'm betting that between the reduced powder load and the increased weight of the bullet the velocity will be greatly reduced.

I know that playing around with different loads is fun but in this case I'm wondering if these bullets are a step forward or maybe backwards?

Backwards from where, forwards towards what intent?
This is shooting percussion revolvers and developing loads for them.
Like you did I ran the numbers when measuring the diameters and the depths of the chambers. Being tapered the chambers become less than .445" and the remaining powder space only .49" behind the bullet.
But if working up loads that approximate service cartridges, from the 1860's there's a wide spread of bullet weights and grain weights of powder as well as powder types that were used in cartridges. There was that double extra special cartridge powder used sometimes that was finely ground and provided greater power in smaller amounts behind the long pointy bullets, used perhaps because of less material supplied meaning greater profits for the contractors. Or maybe they really intended to make sure the power for punching through the outdoor clothing was there. And then again some cartridges had FFg. Bullet weights varied up and down a bit. I've read that Colt recommended 27 grains with their conicals but that supplied cartridges were all over the place in bullet and powder weights.
This is a fun hobby with hands on "living history". Something that I have learned in practice concerning the trade off between more lead meaning less powder and more powder meaning less lead, penetration seems to be just about the same so long as the bullet doesn't get too light and not too flat on the nose. But the lighter weight bullet with more powder, that increases the rate of displacement which has greater disruptive and therefore greater killing effect.

 

[Pete G]

They are called "Cap and Ball" revolvers and I prefer to load them as such.

 

[hanshi]

They are called "Cap and Ball" revolvers and I prefer to load them as such.

Me too. The velocity and accuracy of round ball loads have always been greater in the revolvers I've experimented with.

 

[nkbj]

Keeping the velocity up with light weight bullets in most any revolver (percussion or otherwise) can have it's advantages. Minimizes the muzzle climb and the effects on shot to shot velocity variations. And the round backside minimizes the dispersion caused by poor loading practices.
I'm all for you loading only round ball.

 

[nkbj]

The 1851 styled .44 is so compact that it just doesn't provide room to load anything but round ball.

 

[SDSmlf]

They are called "Cap and Ball" revolvers and I prefer to load them as such.

It’s not like Colt came up with a paper cartridge loaded with a conical during the Civil War or we would have heard about it.

 

[bang]

Bigger/heavier projectile, heavy load not necessarily advantageous.

 

[Zonie]

It’s not like Colt came up with a paper cartridge loaded with a conical during the Civil War or we would have heard about it.

Do I detect some "tongue in cheek" there?

I'm sure you know that pointed bullets were commonly used in Colts revolvers?

Here's a quote from ole' Sam Colts loading instructions for his percussion revolvers:

----------------------
" DIRECTIONS FOR LOADING COLT'S PISTOLS.

First explode a cap on each nipple to clear them from oil or dust, then draw back the hammer to the half-cock, which allows the cylinder to be rotated; a charge of powder is then placed in one of the chambers, keeping the barrel up, and a ball with the pointed end upwards without wadding or patch is put into the mouth of the chamber. turned under the rammer, and forced down with the lever below the surface of the cylinder, so that it cannot hinder its rotation
(Care should be used in ramming down the ball not to shake the powder from the chamber, thereby reducing the charge).
This is repeated until all the chambers are loaded. Percussion-caps are then placed on the nipples on the right of the lock-frame, where, by drawing back the hammer in the full-cock the arm is in condition for a discharge by pulling the trigger; A repetition of the same motion produces the like results with six shots without reloading.

It will be safe to use all the Powder the chambers will hold, when loading with the flask, leaving room for the Ball, whether the Powder is strong or weak. Fine grain Powder is the best. Soft lead must be used for the balls. The cylinder is not to be taken off when loaded. The hammer, when at full cock forms the sight by which aim is taken.
To carry the arm safely when loaded let down the hammer on one of the pins between each nipple, on the end of the cylinder.
The arm should be throughly cleaned and oiled after firing, particularly the arbor-pin on which the cylinder turns.

DIRECTIONS FOR LOADING WITH COLT'S FOIL CARTRIDGE

Take the white case off the Cartridge, by holding the bullet end and tearing it down with the black tape. Place the Cartridge in the mouth of the chamber of the cylinder, with the pointed end of the bullet uppermost, one at a time and turn them under the rammer, forcing them down with the lever below the surface of the cylinder so that they cannot hinder its rotation.
To ensure certainty of Ignition, it is advisable to puncture the end of the Cartridge, so that a small portion of gunpowder may escape into the chamber while loading the pistol.

DIRECTIONS FOR CLEANING

Set the lock at half-cock; drive out the key that holds the barrel and cylinder to the lock-frame, then draw off the barrel and cylinder by bringing down the lever and forcing the rammer on the partition between the chambers. Take out the nipples. Wash the cylinder and barrel in warm water, dry and oil them throughly; oil freely the base pin on which the cylinder revolves.

TO TAKE THE LOCK TO PIECES, CLEAN AND OIL

First--Remove the stock, by turning out bottom and two rear screws that fasten it to guard and lock-frame, near hammer.
Second-- Loosen the screw that fastens mainspring to the trigger guard and turn spring from under tumbler of the hammer.
Third--Remove the trigger guard by turning out the three screws that fasten it to the lock-frame.
Fourth--Turn out the screw and remove the double arm spring that bears upon the trigger and bolt.
Fifth--Turn out the screw pins that hold the trigger and bolt in their places.
Sixth--Turn out the remaining screw-in and remove the hammer with hand attached, by drawing it downwards out of the lock-frame. Clean all the parts and oil them throughly.
TO PUT THEM TOGETHER--Replace the hammer with hand-spring attached, then the bolt, the trigger, the sear spring, the trigger-guard, the mainspring, and finally the handle, returning each screw to its proper place, the arm is again in for use."
-------------------------
I added the underlines to words to draw folks attention to them.

I might also note, Colt had a contract with Eley in the UK to produce foil cartridges with pointed bullets in them. The Colt company sold them in the US.

As I recall, the foil was made in Germany and to the best of my knowledge, no one today knows exactly what it was. Modern aluminum foil doesn't seem to work.

 

[WRustyLane]

No matter, I still prefer cap 'n ball over conical.

 

[SDSmlf]

Do I detect some "tongue in cheek" there?

Maybe. Could be a response to response to Pete G’s comment

They are called "Cap and Ball" revolvers and I prefer to load them as such.

I may lean towards the sarcastic side. My father called it something else, but not appropriate language for this forum.

Life long engineer, but like to have fun and don’t take myself seriously. Just enjoying life.

 

[nkbj]

Do I detect some "tongue in cheek" there?

I'm sure you know that pointed bullets were commonly used in Colts revolvers?

Here's a quote from ole' Sam Colts loading instructions for his percussion revolvers:

----------------------
" DIRECTIONS FOR LOADING COLT'S PISTOLS.

First explode a cap on each nipple to clear them from oil or dust, then draw back the hammer to the half-cock, which allows the cylinder to be rotated; a charge of powder is then placed in one of the chambers, keeping the barrel up, and a ball with the pointed end upwards without wadding or patch is put into the mouth of the chamber. turned under the rammer, and forced down with the lever below the surface of the cylinder, so that it cannot hinder its rotation
(Care should be used in ramming down the ball not to shake the powder from the chamber, thereby reducing the charge).
This is repeated until all the chambers are loaded. Percussion-caps are then placed on the nipples on the right of the lock-frame, where, by drawing back the hammer in the full-cock the arm is in condition for a discharge by pulling the trigger; A repetition of the same motion produces the like results with six shots without reloading.

It will be safe to use all the Powder the chambers will hold, when loading with the flask, leaving room for the Ball, whether the Powder is strong or weak. Fine grain Powder is the best. Soft lead must be used for the balls. The cylinder is not to be taken off when loaded. The hammer, when at full cock forms the sight by which aim is taken.
To carry the arm safely when loaded let down the hammer on one of the pins between each nipple, on the end of the cylinder.
The arm should be throughly cleaned and oiled after firing, particularly the arbor-pin on which the cylinder turns.

DIRECTIONS FOR LOADING WITH COLT'S FOIL CARTRIDGE

Take the white case off the Cartridge, by holding the bullet end and tearing it down with the black tape. Place the Cartridge in the mouth of the chamber of the cylinder, with the pointed end of the bullet uppermost, one at a time and turn them under the rammer, forcing them down with the lever below the surface of the cylinder so that they cannot hinder its rotation.
To ensure certainty of Ignition, it is advisable to puncture the end of the Cartridge, so that a small portion of gunpowder may escape into the chamber while loading the pistol.

DIRECTIONS FOR CLEANING

Set the lock at half-cock; drive out the key that holds the barrel and cylinder to the lock-frame, then draw off the barrel and cylinder by bringing down the lever and forcing the rammer on the partition between the chambers. Take out the nipples. Wash the cylinder and barrel in warm water, dry and oil them throughly; oil freely the base pin on which the cylinder revolves.

TO TAKE THE LOCK TO PIECES, CLEAN AND OIL

First--Remove the stock, by turning out bottom and two rear screws that fasten it to guard and lock-frame, near hammer.
Second-- Loosen the screw that fastens mainspring to the trigger guard and turn spring from under tumbler of the hammer.
Third--Remove the trigger guard by turning out the three screws that fasten it to the lock-frame.
Fourth--Turn out the screw and remove the double arm spring that bears upon the trigger and bolt.
Fifth--Turn out the screw pins that hold the trigger and bolt in their places.
Sixth--Turn out the remaining screw-in and remove the hammer with hand attached, by drawing it downwards out of the lock-frame. Clean all the parts and oil them throughly.
TO PUT THEM TOGETHER--Replace the hammer with hand-spring attached, then the bolt, the trigger, the sear spring, the trigger-guard, the mainspring, and finally the handle, returning each screw to its proper place, the arm is again in for use."
-------------------------
I added the underlines to words to draw folks attention to them.

I might also note, Colt had a contract with Eley in the UK to produce foil cartridges with pointed bullets in them. The Colt company sold them in the US.

As I recall, the foil was made in Germany and to the best of my knowledge, no one today knows exactly what it was. Modern aluminum foil doesn't seem to work.

"Fine grain powder"...
I know there was a variety of different loads using different powders from contractors supplying cartridges to the war effort. Makes me wonder what Colt meant by "fine". Sitting here and redoubleguessing about it, I'd take it to mean what they said which boils down to fill 'er up and it's gonna by OK with whatever you got on hand, and the faster burning you got the better.

Eh, not that I'm fixin' to put four F in a Dragoon or Walker. Reckon my cat would really miss those fingers and I'm kinda attached to them myself.

 

[curator]

"As I recall, the foil was made in Germany and to the best of my knowledge, no one today knows exactly what it was. Modern aluminum foil doesn't seem to work."

I have unloaded an original Colt 1860 "Army" revolver that was loaded with "foil" cartridges several years ago. It was in a museum in Rochester, N.Y. and had been on display for decades in the loaded condition with museum staff completely unaware. Needless to say, the cartridges didn't come out in one piece but I did get the powder out from a couple of the chambers without having to soak them in penetrating oil. I recall it was very fine, similar to today's 4Fg. The cartridge wrapping was a very fragile metal foil which I believe to be tin. I picked the charge out with surgical probes until I could get a solid punch in through the nipple hole and push out the bullet. The bullets weighed a bit less than 200 grains and there was no provision for lubricant. The foil "cartridge casing" appeared to burst or split when rammed into the cylinder and the remainder at the chamber bottom resembled a camera iris with a small (about 1/32") aperture in the center. I believe these were the Eley cartridges and had I the foresight I would have photographed everything. I suspect that there was very thin tissue paper that closed the end of these cartridges on the inside, but I found no actual evidence of this.

The gun that I unloaded was in extremely good condition with 6 loads, 3 of which were capped. The hammer was down on an uncapped nipple. The gun had been well preserved with no corrosion of any kind in bore or cylinder chambers. All of the nipples unscrewed with only a medium amount of resistance. The 3 capped nipples showed some corrosion from the caps that had been on them for perhaps a century or more. The powder I removed from the uncapped chambers flashed off just like new powder which made me quite leary of trying to pry off the existing caps. I soaked the "live" capped portion of the cylinder overnight in Kerosene before attempting that. Its a good thing that the museum staff didn't "play" with this gun as I am pretty sure at least one of the three capped chambers could have discharged.

In 1842, Sam Colt received an Army contract for 200,000 "foil" cartridges of his own design. Somewhere, there is information on his materials and methods. However, I have not been able to find factual information about the type of metallic foil he used but Army trials indicate that was consumed upon firing. This may need to wait until someone invents a time machine!

 

[nkbj]

It would be a treasure to get to test that foil with a PMI (positive material identification) gun. The tech has progressed to the point of being almost "trekkie" in its capabilities for giving elements readings.

 

[Eras Gone]

I've only seen on example of a period round ball cartridge, and its provenance was dubious. Every other 19th century cartridge I've seen and read about in primary resources were loaded with conicals. Round balls have their advantages, especially if you are saving lead for target use. Conical bullets were the ones of choice back in the day.

 

[nkbj]

Round ball had its advantages back before rim fires came along; easy to load, easier to make accurate, higher velocity if you wanted to burn the extra powder. I'm pretty sure those traits impressed many. About the higher velocities, upping the rate of tissue displacement was nothing to sneeze at. And if I was fighting with a 1858 or a '60, hmm, what would I use...

 

[Desperate Lee]

You would use round balls for sure. For stopping power on a man, yes round ball pure lead. Conicals were used in cartridges because they were easier to glue the paper to the skirt. Elmer Keith said the old veterans he talked to said hands down the round ball took the fight out of a man.