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??? flint vs percussion

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They changed over to them for a reason.
:thumbsup:
You have a good point. Plus the change was made rather quickly and by folks that WERE depending their lives on them. They made the change and didn't look back. It is us that have decided for whatever reason to go back and relive them.
They are what they are, no more, no less!
 
The original post says he's got 40 experience with percussions, and the first question was; "after the learning curve", which is more reliable, flinters or percussions.

My question to you; are percussions more reliable than cartriges? If the ansewer is no, then why would you want to shoot a percussion. The reason is virtualy the same.

If you have successfully hunted with a modern rifle, why would you want to use a caplock or flintlock. It's the quest to relive history, and feel the challenge that faced, the people that lived before us. Or maybe you just love firearms and want to experience the enjoyment of shooting all kinds of guns.

I have been a successful hunter, but missed two does with my flintlock. All of a sudden, the challenge and humbling experience has changed the hunting for me. That's what a flintlock, can do.
 
One must also consider that caps weren't always available out in the wild lands. When you're out of caps you're out of shots. With a flintlock, you can shoot as long as you have powder. Finding stones for sparking is not as difficult as many would think. For this reason the flint lock held on well into the cartridge era. Of course the matchlock is more reliable than either one.
 
In answer to your first question; Take the advice given on this site when it comes to shooting flint locks. The flinch is difficult to overcome, but time and practice always help.


The important part is to have fun while you are doing it. I have both a flint and a percussion rifle, and the percussion has been in the safe for many years. I keep meaning to get it out, but the flinter is just too much fun for the first twenty or so shots.
 
Cowboy2 said:
Look, tradition is great. In fact, its usually pretty awesome. But you guys have got to be joking about a flintlock being as/more reliable than a percussion rifle in the hands of the average user. They changed over to them for a reason. It was a time and place in this country when having a gun that worked, and worked mighty damn well, was the difference between life and death, be it for a man or himself and his family. Guns weren't cheap, and money wasn't growing on trees any more than it is today. They went to percussion caps because they worked better, period.
Hey, I like shooting my flintlock, but just because I think its a hoot, that doesn't mean I think its somehow technologically superior to the machine that replaced it. Those people chose the new system over the old for a reason.
I appreciate that everyone likes their favorite toys, but when a man asks "what works best", the proper answer is the one that works best, not what your favorite gun is, and how if you spend five years mastering it, it'll be as good as the other gun.

Not joking at all and you and I disagree... :)

Flintlocks were still being ordered into the 1850s over percussion guns, so some didn't see them as an improvement...They were invented because a fellow thought the ducks were seeing the flash of the pan and flaring so he was missing, not because flinters weren't reliable...The eastern deer herd was decimated because of flintlocks...Plenty of my hunting buddies went to inlines because their percussion guns were unreliable...

A flintlock is very reliable, you throw hot sparks into dry powder and what do you think will happen????

With a percussion gun, there are a few more twists and turns that can get contaminated and keep the flash from the percussion cap from getting to the powder...

With a flinter the powder is just on the other side of the touch hole.... :)

David Crockett understood this and left his new percussion gun at home while he took his reliable flintlock to Texas...

Understand???? :thumbsup:
 
If a 10 year old could learn to use a flinter in 1770 why can a grown man in 2013 ??? :stir:
 
Many Percussion guns have only a nipple connected to a steel drum which is screwed directly into the side of the barrel at the same location as a flintlocks touch hole.

With these, there is no small, long, torturous path for the powder or the caps flame.
Ignition is almost instantenious

Those of you who are only familiar with the modern factories offerings may enjoy seeing this Percussion rifle which uses a modified Siler Flintlock pan to support the percussion drum. :)
TEN4.jpg


This was a very common method of modernizing flintlocks in the mid 1800's.

My answers to the original posts questions are no, the flintlock is not quite as reliable as a well made percussion gun.

That does not mean a well made flintlock is not reliable. There are just a few more things that need to all be correct for it to fire.

Those who really know how to deal with these things take great pride in how well their flintlocks work.

Others have mentioned the current prices of a good flint but there are a number of things that can effect a flints life.

A good lock with a good flint can get over 30 shots without reknapping the flint and over 100 before the flint needs replacing.

A poor lock can bash a excellent flint to pieces after 10 shots.
 
I would guess that the old days were like modern times. Somebody is always coming up with a newer version of something. Money is the object behind a lot of well working products being replaced by something that is different and does the same thing in a different fashion. Hey if somebody doesn't like flint it's not my problem but their loss. :) Larry
 
I have a flint rifle and a flint fowler. I also have a percussion rifle and a percussion shotgun.

I haven't fired a cap since I bought the flint in either barrel/stock choice. When I hunt in regular firearm season I still use the flintlock. It is as reliable as my cap m/l - but it does take some attention to details. As do sidelock cap muzzleloaders. Lonegun1894 hit it. If you know your weapon you will have success.
 
I started with a caplock, and find flintlocks are more interesting and more enjoyable to shoot. They are just as reliable in my experience. I will go out on a limb a bit and say that a good flinter will require a bit more upfront investment for a decent gun and acccessories, but it is well worth it. Don't worry about the life of a flint- it generally doesn't suddenly stop working. You'll know when it's getting close to needing replaced.
 
Hi Steve T,

Just to add a couple of thoughts to this discussion.
1)Reliability: I recently spent a rainy day hunting with some friends during the PA rifle season. I carried the flintlock I made myself and my friends used their modern rifles. I kept my powder/pan dry using a cow's knee and keeping the lock tucked under my arm when on stand. I carefully changed the priming powder a few times during the hunt. At the end of the day I let my friend discharge my rifle into a stump. He was surprised at how fast it fired, let alone that it fired at all.
2) Once you teach yourself how to shoot a flintlock and the discipline not to flinch, focus on the target and most importantly follow thru the shot, you will become a much better shooter with both muzzleloaders (cap and flint) and center fire rifles.
 
instance, if you have a Lyman GPR straight from the box the curve will be long.
What learning curve? I picked up a used GPR years ago. Read a bit about how to use the thing, loaded it and shot it.
I haven't used my cap lock since.
Why, I wonder, do you think that a GPR requires more attention than another model? (the answer to that may be too much of a hijack for this thread).
The one point made about Flint guns vs. Percussion guns that I liked a lot was that "when you are out of caps, you are out of shots". I think of flintlocks as the ultimate survival guns.....one can make everything needed to fire the gun. Not really an issue in modern society, but still...
Pete
 
Cowboy2 said:
Look, tradition is great. In fact, its usually pretty awesome. But you guys have got to be joking about a flintlock being as/more reliable than a percussion rifle in the hands of the average user. They changed over to them for a reason. It was a time and place in this country when having a gun that worked, and worked mighty damn well, was the difference between life and death, be it for a man or himself and his family. Guns weren't cheap, and money wasn't growing on trees any more than it is today. They went to percussion caps because they worked better, period.
Hey, I like shooting my flintlock, but just because I think its a hoot, that doesn't mean I think its somehow technologically superior to the machine that replaced it. Those people chose the new system over the old for a reason.
I appreciate that everyone likes their favorite toys, but when a man asks "what works best", the proper answer is the one that works best, not what your favorite gun is, and how if you spend five years mastering it, it'll be as good as the other gun.
You need the remember quotes like this from John Bidwell one of the leaders of a immigrant group to CA in 1841;
"my gun was an old flint-lock rifle, but a good one. Old hunters told me to have nothing to do with cap or percussion locks, that they were unreliable, and that if the caps got wet I could not shoot..."
Powder that got damp could be dried. Percussion caps not so much...
This is from "Firearms of the American West 1803-1865" by Garavaglia and Worman pg 42.
There were people at the time that hated flintlocks too. But the flintlock, for all its "unreliability" never went out of use in America an the US Military did not particularly trust it so the US military, with the exception of the Hall Carbine, stayed flint until 1842.
A good flintlock is VERY reliable. But there are no good flintlocks on the factory mades the pricing criteria prevents it.
Percussion, a good one is very reliable and gives faster ignition. But they have little advantage over a good flintlock. Also a misfire in a percussion is harder to correct than a flash in a FL in many cases. At matches Flintlock are generally better than percussions where I shoot.
I have taken to using French Flints. Just like the British Army during the American Revolution.
Dan
 
Why, I wonder, do you think that a GPR requires more attention than another model?

Ah, because I have three of them! And I have several flintlocks from other sources and can easily compare them. :hmm:
 
With some hands on instruction with some locks to examine it might be possible to explain "good" in this context.
"Good" goes deeper than making a spark or popping a cap. But many here seem to be stubbornly resistant to understanding this. This not intended as insult. It is just a fact based on posts I have made and the responses. Am I the most diplomatic poster? Probably not. But a fact is a fact once the personal feelings are dispensed with. A Honda, for example, is a pretty darned good car. But is it as "good" as a Mercedes? No.
Both are serviceable but one is put together better than the other.
It is impossible for any of the factory mades to have a lock of the quality of a Chambers lock, for example, and sell for what they do. Its REALLY impossible to have a lock like Bob Roller makes and sell for what they do, the lock costs 1/2, or nearly, what the gun does. Most of his production goes to Europe, Americans resist buying quality locks since they cost twice or more what a lock that ranks from pretty darn good to junk costs.


So the factory mades have cheap mass produced locks and other parts because they are designed to sell for what the maker has determined is as much as they can get for them and still appeal to the mass market. If properly hardened this may provide a decent service life as well. But "good" and "serviceable" are not the same thing and "best" is different than either.
But in the context of the flintlock they are just locks made to sell cheap and there are shortcoming and flaws. I suspect, for example, the parts are "polished" in a large vibrating tumbler with rocks, if they are done at all.
This is why there are no "good" locks on factory mades and a lot of customs have issues as well since many people making "custom" rifles are parts assemblers and not gunsmiths. They use the parts as they buy them. THEY cannot sell the rifle cheap otherwise and by cheap I mean 1200 dollars or so. Some locks on the market are pretty junky and while the design may be excellent (cast from a good grade 18th c. English lock for example) sloppy machining of the castings or changes made to the original design by people who know little or nothing about the workings of the lock result in locks that while excellent when reworked, leaves something to be desired out of the box.
So if I buy a lock for 120 bucks then put 100 dollars (or more) in shop time welding mistakes and makeing or reforming parts, re-arching/replacing the springs to get it back to something like original quality this makes the lock cost $220 or more.

Having a tumbler hole this far out makes the lock DANGEROUS in use.
IMGP1938.jpg

So I filed the hole by welding, redrilled, reamed, turned the tumbler shaft to clean it up (removing the casting flash in the process) and fit the new hole.
IMGP1942.jpg


Took off the extra metal added to the **** "stop" in recent years (I have been using this lock now and then for decades on pistols) put it all together, checked function, inlet it into the sock, polished it and sent it off to Wyoming Armory to have it casehardened in colors.
P1010152.jpg


Did I mention I made the set trigger, the guard, the sights and the swivel ramrod and all other small parts from SHEET/BAR STOCK?
P1010127.jpg


"Good" is obviously a relative term.

This is William Greener writing about locks circa 1830 in England.
LocksGreener.jpg

Many of the locks sent as parts or on guns sent to America were dismal in quality. This goes right back to the beginning of the Colonies and continues right to today. This is why the American Fur Company in 1830 wrote Henry that he should take great care in selecting the Flintlocks for the rifles in the order they were placing.
Finally.
Saying that a GPR or similar does not have a "good" lock is not a personal attack. Its a statement of fact from my perspective on making, assembling, modifying and repairing 18th and 19th C firearms for a greater part of my adult life.
This does not mean they are "unservicable". It means they have features/parts/flaws that prevent them form being ranked as a "good" or "best" quality lock. Just as Greener mentions.

Dan
 
In 1770, you went hungry sometimes if you didn't know how to shoot. Today, we have McDonald's.

1601phill said:
If a 10 year old could learn to use a flinter in 1770 why can a grown man in 2013 ??? :stir:
 
Point taken I can clearly see what you mean , (anyone that cant cope with a flinter is not capable of preping and cooking their own food ) :rotf: :rotf: :wink: :stir:
 
To me flintlocks are to other firearms what Harleys are to motorcycles. Just a world apart, and I prefer them to any other.

Besides my 20 gauge smoothbore I also have a .53 cal caplock rifle. Next to flint it feels about like shooting a modern firearm.

And yes I have more ignition problems with the caplock, related to that long, hard to clean flash channel that executes two right turns between nipple and charge. I still dont have a good system for clearing the flash channel short of a complete cleaning; pipe cleaners ain't flexible enough, a feather shaft works perfect until it breaks and there's never a feather around when you need one anyway.

On a flintlock if it doesn't go off its easy to fix. If the pan ignites but the charge doesn't it almost always the vent hole; a simple matter to clear with a vent pick. If the pan doesn't ignite its the flint or frizzen, end of story.

One thing I have learned though is that the fraction of a second longer hang time on even a good flinter can be very significant when hunting.

Look at the "Birdwatcher misses a javelina" thread on the Smoothbore board here to see a youtube link of a javelina moving out of the line of fire between trigger pull and ignition.

In fact the Reverend Forsythe who invented the percussion system was a duck hunter, who was irritated that his targets would dive or fly at the flash of the pan before the main charge went of.

Turns out too that the first adopters of the new system over here in the 1820's and '30's were likewise well-to-do bird hunters.

The one thing I would stress is that on a flinter the quality of the lock is everything. Concentrate on that first. I have a Chambers Colonial Virginia Lock on my fowler, love it.

Birdwatcher
 
Dan you are a true expert in what makes a good versus great flintlock and on those points I would never argue with you. Your illustration of your point using Honda and Mercedes however missed the mark big time. I know as much about cars as you know about muzzle loaders and I can tell you for sure, a Honda is a far better fitted vehicle than any current manufactured Mercedes. This is true to such an extent that even the Germans, where Mercedes is a lot cheaper than it is in North America, are buying way more Hondas/Acura, Lexus and Audi than they are Mercedes, despite the Mercedes actually costing less than the comparable Audi or Lexus or even Honda/Acura.

In future, if you want to make your point about production versus custom I would use any mass market car versus, Bentley, Maybach or Rolls Royce. That would be the more accurate comparison.

That said I really have learned a lot from reading all your great posts on what to look for in a "best quality" Flintlock. When I get some time I may even get around to ordering a custom in left hand and I will use a great deal of what I have learned on this site so thanks to you and all the others for the great info.
 
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