Flintlock can fire from half cock

[tlallijr]

I was checking out a used flintlock rifle at a consignment shop that I really liked but it had a few problems...dangerous one's ! The lock would fire from the half cock position and it would also go off when you flipped the frizzen closed . So I removed the lock because the screws weren't very tight and I could get them out by hand and the lock did the same off of the gun . When I put the lock back in the rifle and tightened the screws with a screw driver the hammer wouldn't catch at half or full cock until I slightly loosened the screws to the lock . I really like the rifle and it may be priced right if these are things I could easily fix. Does anybody have any idea's what the problem or problem's could be ? Thanks Tony

 

[Grenadier1758]

Most likely there is a problem with the tumbler. Fixing the problem can be fairly simple. My L&R lock had a chip out of the full cock notch. The tumbler and sear needed to be replaced. I would let the lock maker do the replacement since some very slight changes occurred since the lock was probably made 30 years ago. The cost would be reasonable.

 

[Col. Batguano]

Yeah it's probably a relatively simple fix.

What kind of gun / condition (factory or custom)? Price?

Unless it's a specialty ML shop you can usually get this stuff cheap cheap cheap.

 

[tlallijr]

It looks to be a custom built rifle maybe a Lancaster . I'm not too good with the different schools. They are asking $475. It has a full length stock with pretty decent curl , a wood patch box, a hunter star cheek inlay and carving (carving is a little rough but tasteful) it is a fifty caliber with what seemed like a clean barrel because I ran a patch down and it came out clean and the first few inches looked good looking down with a flashlight.

 

[tlallijr]

Oh... condition is pretty good . There is a few dings in the wood enough I wouldn't have to baby it out in the woods. Overall it looks like a pretty well maintained gun .

 

[Rifleman1776]

As said, probably a simple fix but a big barganing tool. Make them an offer, like $300.00 and see what happens.

 

[Col. Batguano]

Sounds like a pretty good deal then. The barrel manufacturer is probably GR Douglass, as, they made most of the barrels 20+ years ago. If you didn't feel any roughness then that's a good sign too.

If you can remove the lock the manufacturer's name is usually on the inside. Likely it's an L&R.

In those older builds most guys used wood screws in the tang rather than a through bolt threaded to the trigger plate as they do today (it's stronger).

It's easy to get confused on styles. You almost have to have a book, (or several) in front of you to peg them. Even then, some period builders incorporated things from one school to another. These were back woods shops, and they used parts as they could get them. Internet drop-shipping was still a wee bit off in to the future.

 

[crockett]

Sounds to me like there might be more than one problem but if you had to back off the trigger plate and then it worked okay....one problem might be the original inlet/mortise is too deep. The deeper this is the higher the tail on the trigger becomes until the sear arm is permanently too high to lock into the tumbler's notches.
so....
1. Put some paper/cardboard shims under the trigger plate and see if that helps.
2. You said the lock is still not holding in half cock when removed from the stock- the notch in the tumbler should be undercut. If it looks okay maybe the nose on the sear is worn short. Since both half and full cocks are a problem the worn sear nose seeems like it may be a problem- it should be squarish and crisp.

 

[don hepler]

crockett is more than likely correct on the trigger plate tightening. I have ran into this same issue. With the trigger plate off, you should be able to check this fairly easy, by working the sear, using something to push it with.

Or, as he sujests, add a washer or spacer to move the plate down away from the sear. Then address the second issue.

 

[tlallijr]

if you had to back off the trigger plate and then it worked okay....

I didn't back the screws off the trigger plate it was the lock screws...would you still recommend the same ?

 

[nchawkeye]

Evaluating a rifle sight unseen through someone who is relatively inexperienced is next to impossible...

Whatever is wrong with the lock can be fixed by someone who knows what they are doing...It can also be made dangerous by someone who doesn't...

Most importantly if you are comfortable with the barrel is what kind of lock is it??? Name brand locks run about $125...Also, the value of most custom made rifles comes in the stock and how well it was made...

Can you go back and get some pictures, get one of the lock up close so we can at least tell you what brand it is...While you are at it get a good picture of the touch hole and it's position in relationship to the pan...This is critical to the quick ignition of the rifle...

 

[matt denison]

I was checking out a used flintlock rifle at a consignment shop that I really liked but it had a few problems...dangerous one's ! The lock would fire from the half cock position and it would also go off when you flipped the frizzen closed . So I removed the lock because the screws weren't very tight and I could get them out by hand and the lock did the same off of the gun . When I put the lock back in the rifle and tightened the screws with a screw driver the hammer wouldn't catch at half or full cock until I slightly loosened the screws to the lock . I really like the rifle and it may be priced right if these are things I could easily fix. Does anybody have any idea's what the problem or problem's could be ? Thanks Tony

A "consignment shop" is that a pawn shop? That is where poeple dump junk.

If you like the gun buy it and find a 'smith to fix it for you. The tumbler is toast. The inlet for the lock needs work. If you don't know a good black powder 'smith and don't have the knowledge or skills to fix it yourself then pass on it. If you have more questions PM me, I'll explain in more detail.

laffindog

 

[don hepler]

I went back and read your original post. I think we can eliminate the trigger plate, because you said it had the same results, with the lock removed. Photos of the lock would help. My first checks of the lock, would be the tumbler, and checking to see if the screws on the bridle and screws on the sear are properly tightened. Look for broken or chips on the tumber notches.

I would advise anyone new to flintlocks to get help, if necessary, and learn to completely disassemble and clean, lubricate, and reassemble a lock. Otherwise, you will be plagued with problems.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The folks are right, but before you replace the parts in the lock (and it does sound like you have two problems), first clean the lock, especially the little notches that hold the sear. I've seen this problem develope, and the owner was sure he needed to replace his sear and or the tumbler. I took his lock off his gun, scrubbed it well with solvent and a tooth brush, and got a bit of hardened goo out of the half-cock notch... voila..., problem solved. If crud prevents the sear from fully going into the half-cock notch, then it may fail when bumped.

Now from what you wrote, I predict that what was going on is that the lock had problems with the mortise (as mentioned), and instead of discovering that and applying the correct solution, the previous owner dickered with the sear, and then loosened the lock screws..., and got a different result, but still had a problem. So he's dumping the rifle.

As suggested, use it as a bargaining tool, then get the lock fixed.


Good Luck. :thumbsup:

LD

 

[tlallijr]

Thank you all for the input. I will go back today with a camera and look it over again to see if I can identify the lock . I really think this rifle could be a diamond in the rough . Thanks Tony

 

[Col. Batguano]

Most problems have simple fixes. It's figuring out what the problem is that's complicated.

It's like the plumber's itemized bill. House call; $5.00. Fixing pipe; $5.00. Knowing which pipe to fix and how; $90.00

 

[Dphar]

I was checking out a used flintlock rifle at a consignment shop that I really liked but it had a few problems...dangerous one's ! The lock would fire from the half cock position and it would also go off when you flipped the frizzen closed . So I removed the lock because the screws weren't very tight and I could get them out by hand and the lock did the same off of the gun . When I put the lock back in the rifle and tightened the screws with a screw driver the hammer wouldn't catch at half or full cock until I slightly loosened the screws to the lock . I really like the rifle and it may be priced right if these are things I could easily fix. Does anybody have any idea's what the problem or problem's could be ? Thanks Tony

You need a COMPETENT ML gunsmith.

Dan

 

[tlallijr]

Here is some pics of the gun...

 

[Rifleman1776]

Looks like a Siler lock.
What is that extra spring thing stuffed inside the fold of the mainspring?
I'm guessing a previous owner wanted a stronger mainspring and did a homemade add-on thingy.
Try taking that out.
And, the rifle does have double sett triggers. That might need adjusting.
Methinks, like the others, the fix will be simple.
Looks like a nice enough rifle. If price is right, do buy it.

 

[tlallijr]

The guy was a nervous wreck when I pulled the lock off.... didn't even want me to clean it. So I don't think he will let me pull a part off it . I think I may try to get it at a slightly lower price , I'm just hoping someone can identify the lock for sure so I know the parts I need are available . Thanks Tony