Flintlock Cock removal

[EC121]

If you need one, all mainspring vises are reasonably priced. I have three.
FYI: Leaving the mainspring compressed in the visegrips or vise has been known to break them. However, it is your spring to do with as you wish.

 

[French Colonial]

Regardless of the job. Buy and use the proper tool!

 

[Artificer]

With Respect
I never mentioned at WHAT point to use a puller or not- don't make an assumption! I have been working on locks for 50 years and have never busted a bridle etc. I have seen busted bridles but usually from bubba doing something else wrong. I agree that the best way is to disassemble the lock prior to removing the the cock. The puller I mentioned is better than prying it off with a screw driver or a punch if not particularly adept or having the proper punches

With respect, I was responding NOT to your post, but rather to 2 shots post. It was quite clearly shown that's what I was doing in my reply above, because 2 shots post was quoted, just like I'm now quoting your post.

Gus

 

[Hatchet-Jack]

Larry Callahan makes an excellent mainspring vise. TOTW sells a decent vise.

 

[Musketeer]

Don’t look at the price of a tool! Buy a good tool and save money.

Amen. Sadly, this is a lesson it took me several times over the years to learn, but I was far happier once I got it through my thick skull.

 

[Artificer]

I am leery of using the thin punch through the threaded hole in the tumbler. That area is somewhat weak, A square punch that fits the square hole in the hammer is a better choice as that tool will be driven against a much more robust part of the tumbler.

Lets look as what Zonie put in his instructions.

7. Now, you will need something to drive the square tumbler drive out of the hammer/cock. If you have a short piece of steel or brass rod with the ends square with the rod, get it. It should be slightly smaller than the square drive of the tumbler. A 1/4" drive socket wrench extension will sometimes work for this. ( I've also been known to get a large carpenter nail that will just fit down thru the threads that the hammer/cock screw was screwed into and I filed the point off leaving a flat surface on it.) I'll call this a "driver".

Note that while the second choice is a punch that fits in the hole, its not the first choice. Also it should not require more than a few taps of the removal tool to drive the hammer off the tumbler.

With respect to Zonie, I've seen WAY more damage to tumblers caused by a piece of steel rod shaped square to fit the outside of the Square part of the tumbler, rather than a good drive pin punch that correctly fits inside the threaded hole and does not touch the threads, where all the force goes directly against the inside body of the tumbler at the bottom of the threaded hole. Here's why:

I've seen WAY too many modern and original tumblers where that square with the threaded holes were not properly hardened and annealed and the square portion of the tumbler then chipped/broke off or punched/squashed the threads into the hole and required one get or make a tap to re-thread the hole.

I found this out from repairing a lot of original/repro tumblers and doing hundreds of "trigger jobs" on original and repro Uncivil War locks as well as a lesser quantity of original and repro civilian locks that don't have a fly in the tumbler to use set triggers. When doing those trigger jobs, it is not unusual to have to dismount and remount the tumbler to the Cock/Hammer a number of times before you get everything right.

IF one uses a Square End bronze or brass punch, the results will normally be much happier than a steel punch, but even they can squoosh/flatten the threads down and require you have the tap to re-thread the hole. That's not so much of a problem with modern repro's made in America, but on guns made elsewhere, that means you have to get a metric tap for each kind of tumbler. HOWEVER on original Tumblers made before 1860, the thread sizes are often NOT standard anymore and you have to buy or make a custom tap to reshape the threads in the square part of the Tumbler.

I have every size of old Craftsman Pin Punches AND additional ones I've modified a little on their diameters to ensure they go inside the hole and don't touch the threads. I've never damaged a repro or original tumbler by using them to drive the tumbler loose and never even heard of an original or repro tumbler being damaged by using them.

Personally, I'm also not much of a fan of the Cock/Hammer pullers, even when used correctly, as they tend to loosen the tumbler square fit to the Cock/Hammer hole more than a correctly sized punch in the threaded hole.

Gus

 

[EC121]

On his locks Jim Chambers says not to use a punch inside the hole. That's good enough for me.

 

[Artificer]

On his locks Jim Chambers says not to use a punch inside the hole. That's good enough for me.

I've seen tumblers damaged in Jim's locks because a correctly fitted pin punch was not used inside them. At least Jim will replace them, when they are damaged from not using a correctly fitting pin punch. Got to give Jim and his family great credit for that, but no one else will, to my knowledge.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Here is my tumbler/catcher remover for after you take off the main spring, bridal, sear spring and all the screws.

Take the fly out first and put it between two pieces of blue painters tape and write what it is on the "package".

Put the lock plate over the hole in the block, with the tumbler in the hole and punch the tumbler shaft out of the cock. Nothing will take off across the floor of your shop, been there done than.



View attachment 104049

The beauty of this kind of home made "fixture" is that it also supports the lock plate while not damaging it. For those who don't have a boring bit large enough for the Tumbler well, one can just saw and use a chisel to knock out a clearance hole for the tumbler. That's what I did many years ago on the first one of these I made.

Gus

 

[Coinneach]

Don’t look at the price of a tool! Buy a good tool and save money.

Absolutely, when we get involved with Muzzle loaders it behoves us all to accept that we're our own Gunsmiths when it comes to maintenance and serviceability. Surely one of the great positives of Muzzle loading Firearms is their simplicity and ease of self help when it comes to repair/replacement and overall maintenance.

 

[2 shots]

guess i should have mentioned to remove the lock first. sometimes i assume too much. sorry

 

[The Crisco Kid]

While you're figuring out which tool to buy or make, keep the cock/tumbler joint wet with a good penetrating oil.

 

[Artificer]

guess i should have mentioned to remove the lock first. sometimes i assume too much. sorry

No problem and I wasn't trying to bust on you personally.

What I was trying to point out is I've seen way too many people who DO remove the cock/hammer from the lock plate while it is still in the stock on a regular basis, just to make it easier to clean the back parts facing the lock plate. This became all to common of a bad habit during the early 1990's in quite a few circles of both 19th and 18th century reenacting, when I was away from it for a few years.

I was shocked to learn about it when I came back to reenacting in the late 1990's as a then fairly "new" STUPID thing people had been doing for a while.

Gus

PS In the 1970's I did some reenacting, but mostly focused on primitive shooting, but also repairing and working triggers and other gunsmithing jobs at the North South Skirmish Association Spring and Fall National Championships.

I joined an UnCivil War reenactment unit when I returned to be stationed at Quantico, VA in 1980. Shortly thereafter, I began a one man campaign against the STUPID habit too many people had of putting a military flintlock or percussion lock on half cock and then deliberately BASHING on the Cock/Hammer to "see if the Half Cock was safe." I had already seen WAY too many broken sear tips and even Tumblers from people doing that.

Fortunately by reading the period Ordnance Manual, I found historic documentation forbidding that, besides what I knew from experience working on the original and repro guns. So I packed my reproduction Ordnance Manual with me to every event I attended, so I could educate people on not doing that.

At the 125th Anniversary Battle of 1st Manassas, we had the largest number of reenactors anyone had ever seen up to that time, I think it was about 4,500 Federal and Confederate Reenactors combined. When my Commanding Officer informed me they would be doing a HUGE weapons inspection and they were looking for weapons inspectors, I told him I would happily do it. He grinned and said, "I thought you might be interested."

I was by then a Captain and Commander of a group of 35 Confederate Reenactors we regularly fielded for events, as well as the XO of Longstreet's Corps that could field up to 165 soldiers, so we were a large unit in those days.

They had decided that Federal weapon inspectors would check Confederate Units and vice versa, which was a good thing. As the weapons inspectors gathered, some knew me and some didn't, but I took charge of them all because I knew more than anyone else. I showed them the Ordnance Manual and FORBADE them from slamming on the Hammers to check the Half Cocks and then showed them the period correct way to check them, as well as the rest of the weapons inspection. Of course I did this with respect to all parties.

What could have been a giant cluster "duck" with the most reenactors ever, turned out to be one of the smoothest weapons inspections most folks ever knew. We got excellent feedback from all the units, especially since when we found a problem, I was able to diagnose it and help folks get their muskets fixed before the reenactment.

Gus

 

[Feltwad]

I have got to ask the question why do you need too dismantle the whole lock to just remove the cock when all you need is to unscrew the screw and using a old screw driver has a wedge prise the hammer from the tumbler square ?
Feltwad

 

[Grenadier1758]

@Feltwad, Gus (@Artificer ) has answered this, perhaps indirectly in an earlier post.

With respect,

AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!! Danger Will Robinson, Danger!!!!

They are meant to be used only when most of the lock parts are already stripped off a lock, after the lock has been removed from the stock.

I have seen SO MANY PROBLEMS caused by Hammer/Cock Pullers used while the lock is in the stock, that I absolutely and most strongly recommend against doing it that way!!!!!

Ever thought about what holds the Tumbler when you drift the Cock/Hammer BACK onto the Tumbler when the lock is still inside the stock? If you guessed the Bridle (if the lock has one), then you are correct. Can we say cracked or sprung Bridles in quantity that would never happen when a lock is disassembled and assembled properly?

Can we say constant prying and reinstalling Cocks/Hammers with the locks still inside the stock will loosen them way earlier than normal? Can we thus say unstable full cock and half cock functions way too early?

PLEASE don't use the Cock/Hammer Pullers when the lock is still in the stock.

Gus

In the example of using an old screwdriver as a wedge instead of the Cock/Hammer Puller wedges, the lock plate can be damaged and the square tumbler axle will be loosened from the stress of removal even if two screwdrivers are used to even out the lift. One screwdriver stresses the off side of the tumbler since the tumbler axle is usually not hardened creating unnecessary wear on the square shaft.

Remove the lock. Disassemble the internal parts. Drive out the tumbler from the Cock/Hammer using a catch block such as @Eric Krewson shows in his post.

Ultimately one needs to have a mainspring vise, so that is an expense well worth incurring. Perhaps the best, while not a period correct vise (and not pictured in Jim Chambers Web Site) is the Tom Curran Monster Mainspring Vise. It has the flexibility for long arm mainsprings and small frizzen springs. It is still listed on the price list so a call would be best to verify that that vise is still available. His traditional mainspring vise is still available.

Curran1.png (950×824) (flintlocks.com)

 

[oldwood]

Good main spring vise??????? Log Cabin Shop catalog,,Pg.# 30,,,part # 20MSV1.....$25.95 each, description.......Repro Mainspring Vise. I'mlazy so I use 2 , one for frizzen spring , one foe main spring to speed up reassembly. No breakage or spring disfigurement yet , 50+ yrs. . ....oldwood

 

[Feltwad]

In the example of using an old screwdriver as a wedge instead of the Cock/Hammer Puller wedges, the lock plate can be damaged and the square tumbler axle will be loosened from the stress of removal even if two screwdrivers are used to even out the lift. One screwdriver stresses the off side of the tumbler since the tumbler axle is usually not hardened creating unnecessary wear on the square sha

I am talking about original gun locks for which over many decades I must have prised off many hundreds flint and percussion hammers just using a old screw driver has a wedge . On 90%n of these original tumblers the square is coned and fit snug into the square of the hammer which is also coned both are case hardened. Maybe this is more of a problem for repro locks which are made from poor materials so I will not make a judgement on these has most of my experience is with original gun lock parts .
Feltwad

 

[kje54]

Lots of good information here however there is one real problem I'm personally dealing with.........

Do you all know how hard I'm biting my typing fingers when reading the thread title............??!!

 

[Robby]

https://www.flintlocks.com/new/parts.htmThis one works great for us older guys with arthritis.
Robby

 

[Relic shooter]

Lots of good advise on hammer removal !!
Having removed a great number of hammers from corroded & fused original & repro locks, soaking the area with a 50/50 mix of auto transmission fluid & acetone for a few minutes first has to-date prevented any removal damage to a tumbler or hammer. Same goes for removing stuck nipples & breech plugs..
Forum member Eric Krenson's photo suggestion to make a tumbler removing inset fixture is a great idea & way to simplify removal & prevent damage to lock components..