Flintlock Derringer

[Zoar]

As a related but DIFFERENT topic from Undertaker's post of the Femme Fatale Ring Gun---I want to say that I have a strong interest in derringers and small guns, particularly small Flintlock's, wheellocks, and yes even percussion, pin fire, etc. I am especially interested in small but powerful guns.

Since I could probably not afford the outrageous price for any from that era 1600-1840's, I will most likely build one. But I would really like to see any pictures of links of small flintlock's etc. I have what some call a River Boat derringer in 41 Cal in percussion. Craftsmanship and coolness is about poor. Does not have much force to snap the caps. I also have what is called a Philadelphia Derringer in 45 Cal, percussion also, that is better however a bit too large. I think they stretched the term when they call it a derringer. ...I got it as a kit. It is available from Dixie Gun Works and at other sources, too. It is a low quality kit. Trigger pull is about a 3/4 ton. ... A really small, fine, flinter (or other) would be much much what I'm after. A double barrel might make me go Ga-Ga.

When I hunt flintlock or bow on my land I want a really small backup gun that has some knock down close range power but I don't want to go modern if I can help it. Plus a really small flintlock (or other) of fine quality would be handsome beyond words.

Thanks guys. This forum and the topics here are terrific. I always look forward to reading this forum. I'm greatful to be here.

 

[Zoar]

Just to reply to my own first post on this topic and to ignite others' interst in derringers, check out this link---
http://www.oldguns.co.uk/5.html

 

[mazo kid]

Just to reply to my own first post on this topic and to ignite others' interst in derringers, check out this link---
http://www.oldguns.co.uk/5.html

Zoar, I was gonna post a picture of mine but the link you posted is GREAT! I have always had an interest in small pistols, but lately the price seems to keep on escalating. Guess maybe that is a good thing if you are selling....

 

[Desert Rat]

There was a company called Palmetto Arms that made a small boxlock flinter in .41 (not positive about the caliber though). Their website has gone under in the last 6 months so I don't know if the company is still out there or not. Dixie was supposed to be a dealer for them but I never tried to contact them.

If I had money not doing anything I would love to have a small pocket flinter to... I just either seem to not have money or find something else I want just a little bit more.

 

Zoar,

I'm sure that Henry Deringer made some smoothbore flintlock holster pistols in the early days, but part of his marketing strategy that made the Deringer name go beyond his guns was the use of percussion ignition in addition to rifled barrels. He started out making rifles and muskets for the military and Indian Department, but he started making back-action, percussion, single-shot, rifled pistols as early as 1826. These were overcoat or pocket pistols with barrels ranging from 3.5-8" with bores probably averaging .42-.44. By the mid-1840's these became his bread and butter. For more info on this Google the Museum of the Fur Trade and look for an article in the back issues of the Quarterly called "The Armstrong Pistol". Deringer pistols of this pattern were common until the colt pattern revolvers really took over. Several manufacturers made them (and really got ol' Henry torqued off for it). In general, percussion ignition was common in pistols much earlier than in rifles. Its not unrealistic to carry a flint longrifle backed up by a caplock pistol if you are talking about the period of say 1820-1850.

Sean

 

[Zoar]

Good replies. Thank you.

So.... IF I was to make my own flintlock DERRINGER, my first tasks would be to find the smallest:
1) Lock
2) Trigger assembly

Then I can fit those to:
3) Barrel & breech
4) Stock of my own making

Does anyone have a good idea of where I could get items 1 and 2?

 

Good replies. Thank you.

So.... IF I was to make my own flintlock DERRINGER, my first tasks would be to find the smallest:
1) Lock
2) Trigger assembly

Then I can fit those to:
3) Barrel & breech
4) Stock of my own making

Does anyone have a good idea of where I could get items 1 and 2?

The RE Davis Becky lock is the smallest available. Never used it, but heard it'll need some tweaking to get it to function reliably. It'll be significantly earlier than anything referred to as a Deringer. To get over that you can just call it a pocket pistol. The round-face version would give you something similar to an English or Belgian import of the day. You won't find a barrel for such a project as a stock item, but someone like Mark De Haas or Ed Rayle can make you one or two. Mark will do it faster. Both will breech it for a fee. Probably smoothbored for one on a flinter. For the stock, see if you can get any cut-offs from any hardwood dealer and look for some hard, dense walnut. Trigger assembly? Just use a torch and a ball peen hammer to peen out a single trigger from some mild steel, pin it in the wood, and cut out a trigger plate from the same stuff. You might have a tough time finding a trigger guard casting for something that small. Dunno on that one. Maybe you could anneal, reshape, and cut and braze back together something from a larger casting. The front finals on those guards were often pineapples. Make the rr pipe out of sheet brass. I've got a brass door kickplate in the shop that I just cut pieces off whenever I need barrel lugs, front sights, or rr pipes. Once you get it together, I'd blue it or polish it bright.

How's that?

Sean

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

These little pocket pistols don't have much power. If you are serious about using it for backing up your bow, you'll want a longer barrel and a bigger bore. I'd think at least .50 caliber and 7 or 8 inches long. A true "deringer" size pistol is pretty weak--the ball will often bounce off a pine board even at close range.

 

[Zoar]

Thanks for the info Sean, very helpful... and as far as the weakness of a pocket pistol/derringer, I have a couple as stated above (but inferior reliability) and yet when they fire off with up to 25 grains of black, they do damage. Plenty at close range which is all I want them for. These are 0-15 pace guns.

But I want a cool little and I mean little flintlock.

 

[Tinker2]

I like the little ones too.
Are you wanting a side lock or box lock?

How much “make my own flintlock DERRINGER” do you
want to do, have tools for?

Did you see this?
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...d/217881/post/532129/hl//fromsearch/1/#532129



Tinker2

 

[Bob Riegl]

:hmm: I kind of want to restate something already been said---the Deringer---hasn't got enough oomph to be a "back-up." First of all, does your state permit a firearm to be carried while bow hunting? In my state you cannot carry a "back-up" even when hunting with an ML---bears kind of make me nervous, ya know what I'm referring to? If you want a "back-up" a .50 or .54 Traditions or GPR percussion pistol will do you well or perhaps a Pedersoli flint lock Kentucky in .50 ( don't remember if it's also available in .54). Either of these will carry enough oomph to make a follow up shot. Frankly if I had my 'druthers I would be carrying my Walker Colt---now that's a real beasty---but not really suitable for Bow or ML hunting sidearms (PC or whatever). :hatsoff:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I don't think 25 grains of powder will fully burn in a deringer length barrel. I have a vivid memory of a ball from a Lincoln deringer bouncing back and whacking my knee after striking a 1" pine board at 15 feet. It failed to penetrate my knee too. The charge was 15 grains of FFFg and even at that low charge some of the powder was blown out the muzzle unburned. I think the muzzle would have to be touching the target in order to penetrate to any degree. Throwing rocks might be a better option--and cheaper, too. A somewhat longer barrel--as on an overcoat pistol--might work better.

 

[Zonie]

Although I've never owned one, from what I've heard and read, the small flintlock pistol that was made by Palmetto was (is ?) a true piece of manure and was one of several made by that company that gave it a bad name.

Even if the laws permit carrying a back-up pistol I would think there has to be something better.

As was suggested, you could make a pistol using a small Becky lock but be forewarned, making a pistol is just about as much work as making a rifle.

 

[LRB]

Zonie is right, and so is Rustfrizzen. The little box locks are manure, unless you rebuild it, and do some modifications. I re-built one because my wife gave it to me as a birthday present. I kinda had little choice other than to hurt her feelings. It was quite a job, and not worth the effort in my opinion, but it can be done.However, they have no real power at all. I had to recut the tumbler half cock, bore a larger chamber in the frame. Chamfer the breech end of the barrel. Make a new main spring. Out of the box, the half cock would not allow clearance for the flint. The main spring broke because it is too narrow where they drill the hole for the screw that holds it. A second factory main spring broke. These are screw barrel guns, but can't be used as such unless you open up the chamber to hold enough powder to get the ball out of the barrel. I think I opened mine to hold 15 gr.with a naked ball pushed into the barrel breech. Out of the box trigger pull was maybe 15 lbs. It ended up as a nice little gun, just not worth the time and labor to re-build.

[/img]

 

[Zoar]

Beautiful job on that baby flinter (picture).

I know a flintlock derringer will not have the knockdown equal to that of a pistol. But, that said, I still want one.

As far as what tools/capabilities I have: Well, I make things for a living. I have a small shop with cutting and drilling tools for metal work. If I do not have the tools/capabilities I'll sub that out to someone who does. I have several machine shops, welders, fabricators, specialty shops that I work with everyday.

My thought is to get that little lock then depending on fit maybe using one of my percussion "derringers" as expendable---thus mock up a small flinter. I also have a short 50 cal barrel length, actually two of them (the leftover from a 50 cal double rifle I had made for me).

I don't know.... many options. But I really like this topic and seeing pictures of other derringers. Please keep it coming.

 

[Tinker2]

My thought is to get that little lock then depending on fit maybe using one of my percussion "derringers" as expendable---thus mock up a small flinter. I also have a short 50 cal barrel length, actually two of them (the leftover from a 50 cal double rifle I had made for me).

I don't know.... many options. But I really like this topic and seeing pictures of other derringers. Please keep it coming.

If your looking for "expendable" what do you think of this? http://www.dixiegunworks.com/produ...=1220&osCsid=7849586d1e1459f7f489597323b28347



Tinker2

 

[LRB]

If you happen to decide on one like mine, Email me, and I'll give you the details of the lock rebuild. It is only feasable for the home workman, who's time is not a factor. These are .41 Cal.

 

[Zonie]

Although I don't remember what company made this little .36 cal smoothbore it does fit the Derringer category.

It came as a kit and I built it back in about '85.
The barrel is a brass hexagon and the stock is Walnut.

I can't hit much with it but it does shoot reliably.

 

[mykeal]

Wow! A left handed, brass barreled deringer. Now that's cool.

 

[Zoar]

I think a stubby 50 cal flintlock derringer would make for one stout close range weapon. I just received the book on the history of flintlocks, includes everything from the sixteenth century as well! It has pictures of some small pocket flintlocks and double barrel flinters and I got drooooooool all over the pages, damnit.