Flintlock evolution from 1720's to 1750's?

[Artificer]

Will,

For some time, I researched any evidence of rifle making in or around Fredericksburg, VA during this period of Pre FIW circa 1720-1750. That research came up empty, though prior to his passing, Gary Brumfield mentioned one time there was some rifle making going on in Orange County just slightly after the period you mentioned and maybe during the FIW. There is, however, mention of Virginia Planters to the east and south of Fredericksburg using English Rifles possibly as early as the 1730’s, but definitely by the 1740’s. The Geddy Brothers in Williamsburg offered the service of rifling barrels there in 1751. That does not mean they made rifles, but it does speak to the acceptance of rifled barrels even in the Tidewater Region and that far east of where the “Rifle Culture” took root.

Here is an original gun that displays a lot of 17th century styling, but probably dates to the early part of the 18th century. Though a higher status gun than usually found in Virginia in the period, it shows a style that may/would have been used in the early part of the period you mentioned. http://www.jimkibler.net/cookson/

During the period you mentioned, some English gunmakers were influenced by the French style of smoothbores with more curved butt stocks. Unfortunately, I could not find documentation on how little or much the French style arms were used here in Virginia in the time period you mentioned.

A French style arm of the period you mentioned, scroll down to “A FINE+ & RARE GEORGIAN-COLONIAL/FRENCH & INDIAN WAR PERIOD ENGLISH FLINTLOCK “TRADE FOWLER” w/ EVIDENCE OF AMERICAN COLONIAL USE, by T. PEELE, ca. 1730” and click on the picture for close ups. http://www.ambroseantiques.com/flongarms.htm

A gun at the end of the period you mentioned: A FINE GEORGIAN/COLONIAL PERIOD ENGLISH/IRISH FLINTLOCK "OFFICER’S" FOWLER, by F. LORD, ca. 1750 http://www.ambroseantiques.com/flongarms.htm

Here are some original guns in the period you mentioned: http://www.jaegerkorps.org/NRA/Hunting Guns in Colonial America.htm


Somewhat surprisingly, it seems English Gunmakers were influenced by or at least knew of Italian Style fowling guns in the middle to end of the period you mentioned. Here is a NICE Italian 1730 dated piece: http://jamesdjulia.com/item/2471-358/

Here is an English piece made in the early 1760’s to show evolution in style just beyond your period: http://www.jimkibler.net/originals/#/harman/

Gus

 

[Auldgoat]

Thank you, Gus. There were rifles and muskets being produced at the Hunter Ironworks in Falmouth in the 1750's iirc. There used to be an original on display in the Bank of Fredericksburg downtown. Don't think it is there anymore. At the time I saw it, I had not yet contracted flintitis but I think it was in the Virginia pattern.
Some of the ruins of the works were still visible 20yrs ago but floods have pretty much buried the site. I have not been able to find much info on Hunter Ironworks yet other than sources like wikipedia.
Will

 

[Artificer]

Will,

James Hunter did not begin gun and sword making until 1775 at the outbreak of hostilities of the AWI, from every record/documentation I have ever seen. I specifically checked about the Hunter Iron Works/Rappahannock Forge to see IF rifles (or smooth bores) had been made there in the FIW. Though Hunter Iron Works did supply military supplies during the FIW, there was no mention of Firearms.

For the Forum, here is a link to Musket made there in the AWI. http://amrevmuseum.org/collection/rappahannock-forge-musket

Gus

 

[Stophel]

Just remember, the 1750's is NOT the 1720's. Nor the 1770's, nor the 1780's....

A rifle in Virginia in the 1720's would be a rare thing indeed. And it would almost certainly have been imported from Germany or perhaps Holland.

I'm sure that a somewhat "bulbous" smoothbore gun of basically Dutch form (like some of the examples I showed or the Cookson gun Artificer showed from Jim Kibler's website) would definitely be more the norm for 1720's Virginia. :wink:

 

[Dphar]

What are the differences between flintlocks of the 1720's and 1750's? - Virginia frontier. Pics? References?
Thanks, Will

Almost no difference. Import locks were often 20 years behind Europe. Locks with virtually identical shape to the Siler were in use in Europe by 1700 or so. Though most had no bridled pan it was coming into use at least in England. A Siler is fine for a Germanic lock since by 1720 bridled pans were fairly common (at least in England) according to George. English locks deviated from Germanic locks by 1720 in that the pan and lockplate were one piece. For a Virginia rifle any of the Queen Anne/Early Ketland lock by L&R or Chambers would be fine for circa 1720.
This from George's "English Guns and Rifles" and from Lenk's "The Flintlock".
By 1750 on the better English locks rollers were appearing on the Frizzen or Frizzen spring.
By 1780 the locks were locking pretty "modern" the L&R #1700 with semi-water proof pan etc dates to about 1780.
Since nobody has any real idea as to what an American made flintlock rifle of 1720 would look like you are pretty safe. But a Virginia rifle would probably look pretty English. The English stock pattern was pretty well fixed by 1720 with allowances for the stature of the person it was made for. These were almost invariably stocked like a fowler.
By the 1750s the American rifle would likely have a longer barrel than the European rifles something between 38 and 48". Caliber would likely be 50-54 by 1750. Maybe larger for 1720. No way to know for sure.
Dan

 

[Dphar]

BTW in 1688 Gov. Dongan of New York wrote that about 10% of his non-native Militia force of 1687 were rifle armed. So there were rifles in America before 1700 in significant numbers. Virginia I cannot speak to. But by the 1740s the natives in some areas were heavily armed with rifles. See "British Military Flintlock Rifles" by Bailey chapter six. By the mid to late-1750s there was considerable alarm being raised by some military officers over this due to how the natives made war (hiding in the trees) and the traders were not happy either since the rifle used significantly less powder and lead than the SB "trader" did. So while we don't know for sure what they looked like or where they were made there were rifles in late 17th c British America and by the second quarter of the 18th the natives even had them in significant numbers. They had to learn about them from the Europeans and I suspect that they were common with this group for some significant period of time before the 1740s in order for the natives to come to understand their advantages.

Dan

 

[Capt. Jas.]

I would not recommend a so called "Queen Anne" or early Ketland for a 1720 gun.

 

[Artificer]

BTW in 1688 Gov. Dongan of New York wrote that about 10% of his non-native Militia force of 1687 were rifle armed. Dan

At other times you have written that this letter was from Gov. Dongan to the Gov. of PA. William Penn was the Proprietor of PA at that time and perhaps that is the person you meant?

I have searched for documentation of this letter and have not been able to find it. Do you remember where the quote came from and if not from an historic reference, what the historic reference was?

What Militia did Governor Dongan did mean? Was it a company of Militia? Was it the Militia of New York? Was it the combined Militia of New York and New Jersey? Was it the total Militia under Gov. Dongan's purview as Governor of New England? Does the source say how many men were in that force?

The historic documentation for this quote may tell us a lot about the number of rifles involved.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Edited to add:

As Governor of the Province of New York, Dongan had purview over English territory that originally included all of the present U.S. states of New York, New Jersey, Delaware and Vermont, along with inland portions of Connecticut, Massachusetts and Maine, as well as eastern Pennsylvania.

 

[Artificer]

Will,

Found this in Firearms in Colonial America, The Impact on History and Technology, 1492-1792, by M. L. Brown, Smithsonian Press

Page 256
"In 1730, gunsmith James Geddy was active in Williamsburg, and on July 8, 1737, the Virginia Gazette established the year before noted that he had for sale “a great Choice of Guns and Fowling-Pieces of several sorts and sizes, true bored, which he will warrant to be good; and will sell them as cheap as normally sold in England.”

Note to the above quote: Neither James or his two sons who followed him in the gunsmithing business were ever known to have made rifles, though his sons advertised the SERVICE of being able to cut rifling in barrels in 1751.

Gus

 

[Auldgoat]

Thank you, Gus. Looks like a trip to Wmsburg may be in order.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

I would study English guns as the majority, if not all the new guns mentioned in the Geddy ad were probably imported.

 

[jbwilliams3]

Artificer,

I've lived around Fredericksburg for most of my 30 years - I've looked for evidence of rifle making also. I'm fairly convinced that the Germanna community west of Fredericksburg eventually included a gunsmith who made rifles in the German tradition. The first German settlement there was 1717. That's all conjecture. I'd love to see what archeology revealed...

 

[Artificer]

I would study English guns as the majority, if not all the new guns mentioned in the Geddy ad were probably imported.

I agree and Kudo's to you for mentioning it! I imagine like the earlier John Brush, that the Elder Geddy made some guns to order or "bespoke work" as they put it, but normally it seems that was for a wealthier patron. Geddy probably could not compete with the low to medium price guns that came from England - so those he would have imported for sale.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Artificer,

I've lived around Fredericksburg for most of my 30 years - I've looked for evidence of rifle making also. I'm fairly convinced that the Germanna community west of Fredericksburg eventually included a gunsmith who made rifles in the German tradition. The first German settlement there was 1717. That's all conjecture. I'd love to see what archeology revealed...

I looked for evidence of rifle or gunmaking there at the Germanna Forge area as well, in the first half of the 18th century. I honestly can't remember if they had a gunsmith there, but I don't remember finding any rifle making evidence in that area.

Gus

 

[Auldgoat]

jb- look at newrivernotes.com "A History of Orange County, Virginia" by W.W. Scott

Will

 

[Artificer]

Will,

Just found this reference. This is the first time I have seen a value placed on "the birding gun" or "bird piece" made by John Brush of Williamsburg, mentioned earlier.

It is also the first instance I read where it mentions Governor Spotswood was responsible for John Brush coming to Virginia. That is kind of exciting information as to how Brush wound up coming to Virginia.

Anyway, here's the information:


"Tyler's Magazine
Volume 3, Page 299.

BRUSH, JOHN

GUNSMITHS IN WILLIAMSBURG. ”” Governor Spotswood brought to Virginia John Brush, as gunsmith. His daughter Susanna married, I, Thomas Barber, II, Rev. Francis Fontaine, Professor of Oriental Languages in William and Mary College. (William and Mary Quarterly, V, 195, 213.) [*] In 1729 Henry Bowcock bequeaths to his son Henry "his silver watch and gun made by John Brush, and a case of pistols with brass barrels made by Hawkins, and my howsing and holster caps." In Henry Bowcock's inventory the gun made by Brush is referred to as "1 bird piece made by Brush" (valued at) £2.10. After Brush came James Geddy, gunsmith, . . . "
http://research.history.org/DigitalLibrary/View/index.cfm?doc=ResearchReports\RR1248.xml

Gus

 

[Turtle Creek]

In Shumway's "Rifles of the Colonial America Vol II"....he mentions in the article 'when was the first rifle made in America' that the English tradition in England and in the Colonies was the smoothbore.
For whatever reason rifles, present in numbers in Germany and Europe, were not in favor or being made in any number in England.
The rifles of the early Colonies came from German immigrant extraction.
The Hessian Jaeger Corps (in Europe and as mercenaries in the Colonies) carried rifles or good quality.