flintlock ignition trouble what do you think please help.

[adkmountainken]

ok just got back let me post some answers to the questions. no i did not clean/run patch between shots i usually do not with my larger bore rifles onloy my small bores. after reading all the comments it does have me thinking that even though it was cleaned COMPLEATLY before this outing that it might auctually foul up this quick between shots and hinder powder in the breech settling completely. i will wipe between shots next time to see if it helps. i am not sure if it is a White Lightning liner but sure does look like it to me. my buddy will cone it and enlarge touchole before next outing to see if that helps. i prime with FFFF or 3f depending on gun this one was FFFF and i prime 1/4 to 1/2 pan away from touchole to insure straight shot and clear ignition of prime ignition. i auctually have not shot this rifle a lot even though i have owned it for awhile it has never been my "every day" or "go to" rifle some i'm still learning its personality. when i sighted it in after i got it was dead on at 25 yards and never had to touch the sights so did not have to shoot it very much. its only latly i have been shooting it consitently that i have been running in to problems which could have been there all along but i had either gotten lucky with the little bit i shot it and now i'm seeing the problems as i shoot it more often.

 

[pacanis]

@pacanis, I use a barely dampened patch around my patched ball. It will push some fouling down the barrel as the ball is loaded. The patch on the jag is wet and does a better job of applying solvent (mainly water in the case of water soluble oil and water or rubbing alcohol) to soften the fouling. As the loading rod is removed, the patch bunches up tighter in the softened fouling and gathers it on the patch as the jag and patch are removed.

One of the other successful means to condition the barrel between shots it to only wipe the bore to where the ball would be placed. This comes close to cleaning the hard crust ring where the ball is positioned.

Thanks.
I'll have to see if loading with a moosemilk patch on top (and retracting) requires that extra tamp or if I notice a crud ring build up compared to swabbing the entire length.

 

[adkmountainken]

i have this posted on another forum as well in order to get a wide varitiy of response but all seems to lead to obstruction from build up.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@adkmountainken, when you cleaned your rifle, did you use a lot of oil at the end before storing it? When it was cleaned, was the cleaning done with very wet patching? The wet can accumulate in the breech and really grab onto the fouling. Store muzzle down after cleaning and for a couple of days of storage. Otherwise the brush with a dry patch needs to finish the breech cleaning.

 

[BruceHH]

ok just got back let me post some answers to the questions. no i did not clean/run patch between shots i usually do not with my larger bore rifles onloy my small bores. after reading all the comments it does have me thinking that even though it was cleaned COMPLEATLY before this outing that it might auctually foul up this quick between shots and hinder powder in the breech settling completely. i will wipe between shots next time to see if it helps. i am not sure if it is a White Lightning liner but sure does look like it to me. my buddy will cone it and enlarge touchole before next outing to see if that helps. i prime with FFFF or 3f depending on gun this one was FFFF and i prime 1/4 to 1/2 pan away from touchole to insure straight shot and clear ignition of prime ignition. i auctually have not shot this rifle a lot even though i have owned it for awhile it has never been my "every day" or "go to" rifle some i'm still learning its personality. when i sighted it in after i got it was dead on at 25 yards and never had to touch the sights so did not have to shoot it very much. its only latly i have been shooting it consitently that i have been running in to problems which could have been there all along but i had either gotten lucky with the little bit i shot it and now i'm seeing the problems as i shoot it more often.

I would suggest you read my first response again. I am not disagreeing with the cleaning crowd, but you do pick the hole so I doubt fouling is the issue. If that channel is much over the .035 length, that is your problem. You can solve that by deepening the cone on the inside, but enlarging the flash hole is not necessarily a good thing. Too large of a hole will allow some powder to be pushed out when you are pushing the patched ball down. Now there could be fouling issue inside the chamber, especially if it is a poorly made Patent chamber with rough walls, but I think you indicated this is happening after only a few shots and I suspect that fouling is not the culprit.

I believe your liner is set too deep, giving you somewhere around a .075 to .095 (maybe even more) depth in your spark channel. If so, you will experience exactly the problems you are describing. You will have to destroy your liner to get it out or pull the breech plug to access the inside of the cone. It is easier to remove the liner and install a new one. If you want to use that style - no problem. Open up the inside cone a little before installing it and you can stop short on the installation and peen over the face to seat it in the chamfer ring.

You can also cone the outside of the liner some to get the same effect as deepening from the inside. If you want to see if the channel depth is really the issue, try coning it on the outside before you do anything else. If that works, leave everything as is and have a good time shooting. There is nothing wrong with having a liner coned from the outside. Try to end up with the .035 or so channel. It is practically impossible to measure it (installed), but you can eye ball it pretty close. I have used a 82 or 90 degree counter sink for this before and also solved the problem. If you use a counter sink bit, be careful about opening up the hole diameter. 1/16" is the magical size. You can use a appropriate sized drill bit as long as you go slow and keep it from wandering around the liner face. You don't want a cone the size of the hole face of the liner - maybe no wider than 1/3 to 1/2 the diameter of the face.

Also, it has been proven that priming away from the flash hole is a bad thing. There is plenty of testing and evidence to back that up. The last issue of Muzzle Blast and previous issues have covered that extensively. I suggest you fill the pan up (or close), close the frizzen and tap the side of the lock to make sure it is spread out across the entire pan. If you don't want to use that much priming powder, stack it up against the touch hole. More priming powder allows for more area to catch a spark and then more sparks to go their merry way. I pick, prime the pan full, close the frizzen and give it a little tap to get powder over to the touch hole and maybe even in it. If I have the rare misfire, it is because my flint is dull and my priming powder does not ignite in that senario.

Edited. Well, I tried and good luck but it fired the first few times and then did not. That is not water/oil inside your chamber.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

Most of the common items have been addressed. Just a few suggestions...

• What method of cleaning do you use? Are you separating the barrel, putting the breach into hot soapy water and cleaning it traditionally or are you using some variation of moose milk or something and leaving the barrel in place? Hot soapy water in a bucket cleans the flash channel better.
• Have you tried using 3f black powder as your main charge? Flintlocks... at least some of 'em can get finicky with 2f powder. Also, not all black powder is created equal. Wouldn't hurt to try a different brand if/when it becomes available.
• I have never used 4f powder. I always prime with 3f, and have been successful using a duplex load of 20 grains of 3f over 30 grains of T7 or Pyrodex.
• I don't swab between shots. Seems to create more problems than it solves.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

Get a scraper and scrape away the hardened caked fouling that is likely on the face of your breech plug. When that is done use ffffg powder to prime with as it works best for quickest ignition.

 

[ord sgt]

The touch hole placement is not the problem. On my first build, the liner is a bit forward of the pan and I get good ignition with FFFg as the main charge and as the priming powder in the pan.
I suggest flaring the outside of the touchhole at a tiny bit so it help funnel the flash into the main charge.
Also, I didn't notice the amount of powder used in the main charge in the barrel. If that charge is not in line with the touchhole after clearing the hole, it may not be getting the flame from the prime. Some random thoughts.

 

[adkmountainken]

there is no doubt in my mind it is NOT due to water/oil left over from cleaning becouse i am a firm believe that most missfires are due to OVER CLEANING and leaving water or oil residue and i go through extreme pains to make sure my barrle and breech are DRY before i go to the range. but to answer the question i use my reciepe of "moosemilk" and do not take the barrel of the rifle. i will definitly take it off this time and use the hot/soapy water method which is what i do when i know i will not being using that gun for awhile and will give it the :end of season" cleaning. i prime with 3f with any guns i am using a 3f main load i happen to have 2 full cans of FFFF so i have been using that when i am using FF or F as main charge. as stated i will now switch to FFF for this rifle and see if that helps. i will get a scraper down the barrel ASAP. i greatly apprieacte all the help and responses! i really love this gun and it fits me to a T so i will fifure it out with all your help and many thanks to member Rawhide67for the hands on help!

 

[Rawhide67]

At this point, I'm 99% certain the breech plug is coned, or tapered ot dshies inside. I straight rode bottoms out in the barrel, but that same rod with a 54 jag on it won't. It stops 2.3 inches shorter. Allowing an inch for the length of the jag, there's a 1.3 inch difference. I don't know if the shape inside the breech could impact it? Don't know how common non flat face breech plugs are? Are they specific to certain types of guns?

 

[Rawhide67]

@adkmountainken, when you cleaned your rifle, did you use a lot of oil at the end before storing it? When it was cleaned, was the cleaning done with very wet patching? The wet can accumulate in the breech and really grab onto the fouling. Store muzzle down after cleaning and for a couple of days of storage. Otherwise the brush with a dry patch needs to finish the breech cleaning.

I’ll reply to this since I did the cleaning. No oil used. Started with TC #13. Multiple patches, looked like small lead fragments a couple times, so I ran some hopes patches down the barrel. Ken got the gun used, so it may have been shot bare ball. Then back to #13. I must have used 60 patches to get it clean. Also had a brush in there to scrub in between patches. Ran several clean dry patches down the barrel at the end, even let one set packed down on the breech before pulling it with a patch worm. I don’t think moisture/oil left in the barrel would be a factor as it fired the first 2 shots flawlessly.

 

[Rawhide67]

I would suggest you read my first response again. I am not disagreeing with the cleaning crowd, but you do pick the hole so I doubt fouling is the issue. If that channel is much over the .035 length, that is your problem. You can solve that by deepening the cone on the inside, but enlarging the flash hole is not necessarily a good thing. Too large of a hole will allow some powder to be pushed out when you are pushing the patched ball down. Now there could be fouling issue inside the chamber, especially if it is a poorly made Patent chamber with rough walls, but I think you indicated this is happening after only a few shots and I suspect that fouling is not the culprit.

I believe your liner is set too deep, giving you somewhere around a .075 to .095 (maybe even more) depth in your spark channel. If so, you will experience exactly the problems you are describing. You will have to destroy your liner to get it out or pull the breech plug to access the inside of the cone. It is easier to remove the liner and install a new one. If you want to use that style - no problem. Open up the inside cone a little before installing it and you can stop short on the installation and peen over the face to seat it in the chamfer ring.

You can also cone the outside of the liner some to get the same effect as deepening from the inside. If you want to see if the channel depth is really the issue, try coning it on the outside before you do anything else. If that works, leave everything as is and have a good time shooting. There is nothing wrong with having a liner coned from the outside. Try to end up with the .035 or so channel. It is practically impossible to measure it (installed), but you can eye ball it pretty close. I have used a 82 or 90 degree counter sink for this before and also solved the problem. If you use a counter sink bit, be careful about opening up the hole diameter. 1/16" is the magical size. You can use a appropriate sized drill bit as long as you go slow and keep it from wandering around the liner face. You don't want a cone the size of the hole face of the liner - maybe no wider than 1/3 to 1/2 the diameter of the face.

Also, it has been proven that priming away from the flash hole is a bad thing. There is plenty of testing and evidence to back that up. The last issue of Muzzle Blast and previous issues have covered that extensively. I suggest you fill the pan up (or close), close the frizzen and tap the side of the lock to make sure it is spread out across the entire pan. If you don't want to use that much priming powder, stack it up against the touch hole. More priming powder allows for more area to catch a spark and then more sparks to go their merry way. I pick, prime the pan full, close the frizzen and give it a little tap to get powder over to the touch hole and maybe even in it. If I have the rare misfire, it is because my flint is dull and my priming powder does not ignite in that senario.

Edited. Well, I tried and good luck but it fired the first few times and then did not. That is not water/oil inside your chamber.

I have a centering drill with a brad point that is 1/16” and a 60 degree taper. That’s what I would likely try to cone it with. I don’t have anything else with an angle more steep than that.

 

[Grenadier1758]

In the case of @adkmountainken's rifle, we have an example of a chambered breech. It doesn't matter how common these breeches are, that is the breech on the rifle. Looking at the picture. we see the line where the chambered breech is threaded into the barrel. The line is there by the open frizzen. Apparently it is a hooked breech too and there is more of a gap than I would like, but that won't have an effect on the firing of a charge of powder.

Since we know this is a chambered breech, let's look a cut away drawing of the breech and a few others. What I see is that this is not a traditional breech with a flat breech face.

The diameter of the chamber is smaller than the diameter of the bore of the barrel. That is the reason that @Rawhide67's rod with the 54 caliber jag can't reach the bottom of the breech. I am not sure why the jag is stopping 2.3" from the bottom of the breech. I doubt that the breech is a modified Nock's Patent Breech as commercially available breeches available for builders are designed as a chambered breech. An endoscope would verify that, but I doubt that is necessary based on the pictures. We should be able to see that normal wiping between the shots won't get to the fouling in the chambered breech. We can see that during most cleaning the chambered breech becomes a reservoir for all sorts of solvents and grease that quickly become puddles of sludge that block the path from the pan to the powder charge.

Since the touch hole liner is part of the chambered breech there is no way the ramrod would get caught on the touch hole liner. The liner may still be too long and a gathering place for fouling, but based on Rawhide's view of the barrel and the light through the touch hole visible, that doesn't seem to be the case.

I think that adkmountainken is on the correct path to resolve his failure to fire.

 

[BruceHH]

I have a centering drill with a brad point that is 1/16” and a 60 degree taper. That’s what I would likely try to cone it with. I don’t have anything else with an angle more steep than that.

I think that will work just right. I believe the problem will be solved. When those type of liners are used, it is very easy to get them so deep that the channel is too long for channeling a good spark stream. Your 60 degree taper will definitely shorten that channel and you have the added benefit of the cone directing sparks into/towards the hole. A Win/Win.

Now if he will fill that priming pan.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I have a centering drill with a brad point that is 1/16” and a 60 degree taper. That’s what I would likely try to cone it with. I don’t have anything else with an angle more steep than that.

That is all you need to chamfer the touch hole entry. It should be long enough to get to the internal cone. There will be a good entry for the flame front to get directed to the powder on the other side of the touch hole. It's heat not sparks that ignite the powder charge. True that the burning steel particles (sparks) are hot and they do ignite the powder in the pan.

I do not believe that the length of the 1/16" touch hole is the problem. Caywood only uses drilled touch holes and does not use a touch hole liner. These are probably longer than 0.035". I haven't heard that any of his guns are slow to fire. That being said, touch hole liners do improve the ignition of the powder charge.

 

[Rawhide67]

Would it be possible, in theory, for the ball to seat on the shelf at the end of the chambered breech, and the powder behind it to drop out away from the vent hole once the gun level in shooting position? Ken isn’t a cream puff on powder charge, but not knowing how much room is in that chamber, I’m wondering if the powder can move?

 

[adkmountainken]

thanks again for so much help i have been at it awhile and can usually trouble shoot what i can see this was beyond my level. i try to do everything the same every shot and when something goes wrong i can usually brake it down. about the only thing i don't think i could get use to changing is pan prime i have done it the same way from the first day i was instructed by an old timer at the range to fill 1/4 pan away from the touchole and carry rifle at an angle to keep it away when hunting. BUT i am willing to give it a try and obvisoly i have shot many times with the prime against the touchole becouse i hunt pretty hard and put on some miles so i know it has moved many times with no problem with ignition.

 

[adkmountainken]

i was running an 80 grain charge of FF Goex, a hand cast .535 ball weiging 229 grains with a .018 pillow tick patch greased with a lube of 50/50 Mink oil & Neatsfoot. this lube has been the best i have ever used as far as lack of fouling and no need for cleaning between shots UNTIL this fiasco...

 

[adkmountainken]

i was thinking i could go to a 90 grain charge of FFF to help take up more room and provicde a fraction of quicker ignition. it is a very well built, heavy barrel and stock no problems on running a heavier charge.

 

[Bushfire]

i was instructed by an old timer at the range to fill 1/4 pan away from the touchole and carry rifle at an angle to keep it away when hunting.

I don't like those hard and fast rules, how much prime will vary gun to gun, it's one of the things you need to figure out for reliable ignition.
My GRRW 54 can be shaken and turned upside down and the prime will still where it needs to be. My old pedersoli trade gun if you turned your head sideways the whole prime would be bunched up away from the touch hole.

Anyone can pick up a centrefire or a caplock and get it firing no worries straight away. Flinters have a learning curve, it's nothing to fear just think of it as part of the journey. When I got my first one, I was getting around 30% ignition, after I toyed with it and learnt about flintlocks that same gun ended up firing every time unless I did something wrong.
I pretty much only hunt with flinters now, when I pull the trigger I pull it knowing she's going to go bang.