flintlock improvements

[84bronze]

It was amazing how the people from way back accomplished what they did, despite their lack of information.

I agree there are some great craftsman today, I don't believe that above to be true and today there is a lack of information. I believe there they knew the true dynamics of wood and metal which they used to bring out the strength and beauty to create things that are still around after hundreds of years. The craftsmanship that made America great and the knowledge of the crafts is becoming lost / forgotten period in history. People "way back" made what they needed with their own hands. Now you go to Walmart and buy something that a Chinese craftsman made. Where wood shop and metal shop were once required in HS, now you would have a hard time finding a school still teaching them. We need more craftsman and less xbox masters.

In my opinion there are hand made guns that were made with hand tools that would match tolerances of a CNC machine. Time to completion is the only difference, but priorities were different then. There were and always will be people of different skill levels. Now you can have a computer program mass produce something. Don't get me wrong there are allot of great woodwrights, metalsmiths and gunsmiths that can work magic with a lathe or milling machine (even hand tools). Even today though the best quality guns (or anything for that matter) is advertised as "hand made" by the best craftsman. Most people don't want to wait that long today.

Yes there are some new types of metal that are great but a 1000 year old Japanese sword made of simple carbon steel is hard to beat. A decent forge can get you close but not for mass production.

I apologize ff: and will get down off my soapbox.

I'm glad I can still acquire and enjoy these great machines while also enjoying the benefits of today's technology! Technology is expanding exponentially but it's still God's plan.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

Today's lock makers have a far different market (customer) that the market of Joseph Manton, for example. Today we mass produce a quick, high quality, by the hundreds or maybe thousands. Manton and his competition made locks built like watches for a discriminating customer one at a time. (Two at a time if the gun was a double.) Interchangeable parts didn't play apart - if a part was needed, the customer returned the gun for a hand fit part of superb quality that matched or exceeded the original.

Today we simply will not wait for, or pay for that level of quality. I have had a couple of these late flint period locks in my hands - they have no equal.

I have great faith in todays makers though. I think Jim, LC, and others could build that quality. But would you be willing to pay for the intensive labor bill? I'd guess 5 thousand for a single lock. That might be low. Our customer demographic simply doesn't permit that kind of time. OK, off my soapbox.

Again, my opinion and 50 cents won't buy a Coke any more.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[bpd303]

Exactly, we have developed into a throw away society. If a lock isn't working just pitch it and get a replacement. How many threads are there that ask where can I get a replacement for my ______(insert any component).

 

[M. De Land]

An aspect of today's guns though that is a definite improvement over any original is the quality of steel available.
The old timers had nothing like the steel alloys now available for their craft.
There are still some fine guns being produced in this country that are superior to even the original in fit and finish as well as steel and wood used in their construction.
A case in point is Shiloh Sharps Co of Montana.
None of the originals even in custom grade were made any better and were far inferior as to steel quality.
These are made from scratch with CNC machinery and final fit with hand tools.
The wood to metal fit, wood quality, case coloring, checkering and even engraving should price these guns far beyond what they actually cost.
I'm not a fan of the 1874 Sharps design but I'm a big fan of the quality of these guns made with a combination of the latest technology, and material the old masters could not have dreamed of. Mike D.
I see them regularly and the quality remains superb.

 

[Artificer]

At the 1998 World IMLC Championships, I had an opportunity to fix the lock on an original Nicolas Boutet (Armourer to Napoleon) circa 1810 flintlock, saw handled, dueling/target pistol owned by the Captain of the French Team. The quality of the lock, barrel, wood, checkering, engraving, chisel work, etc., etc. was so good it was breathtaking.

Then I took the lock off and saw what I considered to be a crime against history. I was shocked and then downright enraged that some (adjectives FAR too obscene and shocking for a family friendly forum) IDIOT had attacked the sear and tumbler with a snag grinder and less finesse than a maddened Grizzly Bear. It was a good thing the IDIOT was not at that competition. I studied it for a few minutes and thought I could get it back to shooting condition for enough shots for the competition.

So I took it to my “workbench” which was a picnic table with a vise bolted down with two large C clamps. The only heat source I had was a propane torch. Though I had over 23 years tuning locks and doing trigger jobs at the Nationals at the NSSA, I did not consider myself worthy to have swept the floor in Nicolas Boutet’s shop. Talk about pressure!

Well, 4 ½ hours of hand filing and polishing and the lock was in good enough shape for the competitor to finish the match. He took 7th in the match, but that was a record for anyone on the French Team. I begged him to get that lock to a REAL gunsmith at home in France, so the parts could be properly welded up, fitted and hardened/annealed. I never heard about that pistol again, but it was my fondest hope the owner did just that.

It may be that some people today could replicate the quality of that lock and entire pistol, BUT as others have remarked, the cost would be astronomical!!
Gus

 

[84bronze]

Awesome slice of history!

"It may be that some people today could replicate the quality of that lock and entire pistol, BUT as others have remarked, the cost would be astronomical!!
Gus"

Yes, but being able to fix it yourself...priceless!

To be able to afford that kind of quality is beyond my budget, but having the skill and knowledge to recognize that level of quality takes years. To see what kind of chisel strokes someone prior left for you is not something you get from books.

 

[Nessmuck56]

A piece of heaven..is a well tuned lock...

 

[M. De Land]

Well, actually jeweling on the inside of a lock plate is meaningless as far as lock quality.
My attention immediately went to the cross ding in the upper leaf of the main spring and the bend of the same.
The ding should be stoned out in line with the leaf and the outer corners of the whole spring should be radius-ed as it is a stress riser and potential breakage point and the bend should have all the nicks stoned and sanded out for the same reason.
Also a good many of these springs are cast now days instead of being forged from spring stock which almost always has better grain structure and alignment for more strength, longer spring life and less breakage. Mike D.

 

[Nessmuck56]

And tell me ...how many years do you have building ML's ?? Oh I forgot ..this is the Internet ...so you can be anybody you want to be ....LOL

 

[M. De Land]

Don't mean to hurt your feelings, just telling you the truth so you can learn a better way of doing things.
I know folks that have been doing things the same less efficient, less productive way for years but are so hard headed they refuse to listen to anything new and as a consequence remain in the same rut when they could have been enjoying the fruit of a better mouse trap by swallowing their pride and listening to a multitude of good ideas coming from a larger pool of collective thought.
None of us really has any original ideas we simply build on, modify and hopefully improve on those ideas that have gone before and select the best ones that suit our purpose.
To answer your question directly I finished my gunsmith schooling in 1981 and have been involved in all manor of gun repair and building continuously since.
Collecting good ideas and techniques from others plus adding my own discoveries is a fun and interesting past time for me.
Mike D.

 

[Claude Mathis]

None of us really has any original ideas we simply build on, modify and hopefully improve on those ideas that have gone before and select the best ones that suit our purpose.

I agree. I’ve always thought of the Forum as a place where members could share their ideas and opinions, and leave it up to the reader choose what works best for them.

It’s humorous sometimes to watch two people argue over who has the best idea, when in the end, there was a third and better option that neither thought of. :haha:

 

[Dean2]

I appreciate your perspective. I have handled, shot and worked on a large number of hand built rifles, most were English and German made arms of an era slightly later than the muzzle loading period.

It really is amazing to see the works of art, and I am not talking engraving, carving etc, that the old masters from Purdy, H&H and the other custom houses turned out with mostly hand tools. That said, because these were hand built and hand fitted the parts are not interchangeable.

An English gentleman hunter would take his guns in to be inspected, and overhauled annually. He carried spare pre-fitted locks, triggers and springs for each gun and also always carried two fully operational guns with full spares on any hunt because a gun failure was not easy to fix in the field and when you are going to be away from home for 6 months that is a big consideration.

While I admire the tremendous craftsmanship of old, modern built guns can be and are as well finished and built, and are built of better materials than those of days gone by. Beyond a certain point, fitting and finish of metal and wood does not improve functionality, and often impacts reliability.

A carefully built Flintlock, using current technology, replicating the best lock geometry and using current materials will be as or more reliable, easier to repair and stand up to far more use than even the best examples of days gone buy. Something as simple as barrel steel means modern MLs will long outlive their earlier brethren with far more shots through them at the same time.

There are still people making flintlocks completely from scratch and in relative terms, the cost adjusted for inflation is in the same order as custom builds of years ago. The average guy however wasn't shooting one of those, he was using the relative equivalent of mass produced guns of the day because most people couldn't afford a Purdy in 1820, any more than they can afford one today. IMO, yesterday's mass produced guns are definitely not on par with today's.

 

[Dean2]

Interesting quote from the Purdy website from the oft admired on this Forum Joe Manton

Colonel Hawker once asked Joe Manton, early in the eighteen hundreds, "Who is the next best gunmaker to yourself?" Manton replied, "After me, Purdey does the best work." - Tom Purdey

Remember a used Blackpowder Purdy today costs over $250,000 in good condition today. New you are approaching $400,000.

 

[M. De Land]

Yup true story, I've had more than one slap my forehead moment of "Why didn't I think of that!" :rotf:
I spend some time praying myself out of trouble as well from time to time, consulting the best gunsmith there ever was! :grin:
You wouldn't believe some of the genius solutions I've gotten that way! :grin: Mike D.

 

[84bronze]

Nice lock.

This is still just a forum where we can share information about the tools used to protect and provide life sustainment. Some of us only practice one or the other, or even both. I know I don't have anywhere locally that I could find the same quality of expertise and opinions being shared.

I look at that lock and see allot of work that was put into it. I can't say anything other than it sure looks nice. I don't think I could make a perfect lock yet :hmm: . I understand how nicks can weaken a spring but if it well tuned than it's a good shooter. Every chisel stroke in the metal tells the history of the person that created it.

Aren't forged steel parts that have been properly tempered stronger than cast parts? Some of the newer MIM parts are supposedly weak? Metal has a grain that flows like wood but then again these new "super" metals don't follow the same guidelines.

Being able to look at Looking at an item and tell the history of it is a gift that takes many years to train. Training your hands can take just as long.

 

[M. De Land]

There is discussion pro and con about the quality of cast springs but personally I make mine out of spring stock and have replaced a fair amount of cast springs with these.
I believe what you have said is true about grain structure in steel.
Most of the leaf springs I have replaced broke from some kind of stress riser usually an nick , crack or ding in the bend or very close to it.
Very often they were not hot enough when shaped or when cast there were checks/cracks on the outside or inside bend that were not filed and sanded out before hardening.
These edges , inside and out should be radius-ed somewhat and all file and sanding strokes need to be in line with the spring leaf and never cross wise.
Making some of these lock springs is a real job at times.
Hardening and tempering just takes some experience but once mastered is quite easy.
Coil spring making is a whole other matter but equally interesting, done either in the lathe or spring winding jig. Mike D.

 

[84bronze]

Technology is increasing exponentially. Weapon systems of our modern military can do wondrous things using new materials and computers. Heck, you can even print a gun today. Technology has greatly increased over the last 200 years. A full titanium , full roller bearing, electronically fired muzzleloader would still be...a muzzleloader. Individual craftsmanship is an art. I like the idea of building a flintlock myself. Yes I can buy a box of AR parts, but it's not the same.

I look at it like this; I can sit down with my iphone and talk with family and friends anywhere in the world while letting them know exactly where I'm at OR I can sit around my fire pit without any modern technology or materials with family and friends while everyone knowing exactly where we are at and have the same satisfaction. It is all what matters to you which makes one or the other better. Having what you need when you need it is most important. More technology in my opinion isn't always better. Of course bringing a knife to a gun fight isn't good either. I can build my own fire but not an iphone.

 

[Dphar]

Given the many improvements in lock design and geometery along with metalurgy, todays better locks such as the L&R are head and shoulders above those made in days long gone by. Just the opinon of an old fart. Take it for what it's worth. :hatsoff:

This is simply not true.
Flintlock improvements stopped when the British started switching to percussion. Some of the repro locks are being made by people who do not understand what they are doing and make modifications to parts cast from originals and make them far worse and don't even know it. Or so it seems.


Dan