Flintlock not fully striking/closing...any suggestions??

[Larks]

Might have missed it, but how does the lock function when removed from the stock? The potential problems need to be eliminated one at a time. If the cock still doesn't close all the way, check for binding in the bridle and tumbler or lack of lube. If it does close or stops on a partially opened frizzen, then remove the frizzen spring and check that the frizzen moves freely. All one step at a time.

A good question: I thought that I had the lock working well after a number of initial lock building issues that I had posted here about (a couple of years ago now) and, as I mentioned earlier, when I fitted it to the rifle the hammer/cock did initially bind up on the side of the stock slightly so I thought rectifying that would solve the problem.

But sadly that was not the case and I can’t see any other signs inside the lock inlet area where anything might be binding up or touching.

I will certainly be taking it a step at a time, in so far as the first step will be that threefold plan mentioned above..

 

[IanH]

I use the lead in my Lee casting furnace, near pure, melts at around 610 Frankenstein, let it get just a little higher maybe 650 or so, float the spring on the lead for a while and finally poke it under the surface for a few minutes. If it turns any darker than a dark purple you went to far.

What I'm calling the "shoe" really isn't a shoe but the whole part that sticks up from the bend, that's the part that needs to be protected from reaching annealing temperatures when drawing the hardness of the pan cover etc.

 

[Larks]

I use the lead in my Lee casting furnace, near pure, melts at around 610 Frankenstein, let it get just a little higher maybe 650 or so, float the spring on the lead for a while and finally poke it under the surface for a few minutes. If it turns any darker than a dark purple you went to far.

What I'm calling the "shoe" really isn't a shoe but the whole part that sticks up from the bend, that's the part that needs to be protected from reaching annealing temperatures when drawing the hardness of the pan cover etc.

Thanks Ian. When I initially case hardened the frizzen face (shoe?) I used my vice jaws with the cam and toe (?) area clamped in as a kind of a heat sink to soak up any heat that migrated down to there, but I didn’t think to either temper or anneal that area after hardening the face.

I’ll try the lead pot for the spring this time, I can see a thermometer on my shopping list for this morning.....just to be sure.....

As an aside: do you leave the lead to harden in your pot after you’ve done a session of castings or do you empty it out? (ie into ingots)

 

[IanH]

Did you not quench-harden the frizzen from a full orange color after treating it with casing powder?

 

[Larks]

Did you not quench-harden the frizzen from a full orange color after treating it with casing powder?

I did but just didn’t think to temper the base area after doing so, more out of ignorance than anything else, along with some expectation going on colour that the vice had kept the temp in that area down enough not to need it. I should know better as I “dabble" in blacksmithing (tools, knives, door furniture etc).

But the frizzen hammer (?? - pan cover area??) would certainly have heated up to red so that bend between the hammer and face would, as you suggest, be a failure point so I can see the need for tempering.

You said “annealing" temp’s but did you possibly mean “tempering"? I anneal hardened metals before working them - ie to make the metal workable (making knives and tools etc) but I temper those after quench hardening them to take the brittleness out of them but not so far as annealing would do.

I used “Cherry red” as the case hardening agent.

 

[IanH]

You said “annealing" temp’s but did you possibly mean “tempering"? I anneal hardened metals before working them - ie to make the metal workable (making knives and tools etc) but I temper those after quench hardening them to take the brittleness out of them but not so far as annealing would do.

What I meant was you must use a heat sink that employs water to prevent the end of the frizzen that the flint strikes from becoming tempered at all from its very hard state while you apply heat to the bend and pan cover to bring it down to about a spring temper. Typically we DO wish to draw the temper of the hardened frizzen face (or the whole frizzen) very slightly in an oven to a light straw color (about 375 Deg. F), but if you did that already and it makes dull sparks then perhaps it was tempered too much for the metal that it is. My description of leaving the LH lock frizzen as hard as I could make it was an example of some frizzen steels are just too soft after the recommended tempering process. Since you cased it, the very surface might be too hard if left at a full quench hardness, or it might not, you'd have to try it and see, and if the face is too hard after all the hardening, heat-sinking while tempering back the bend, pan cover, and cam end, you can put it in the oven at 350-375 for 45 minutes and the only effect will be a slight draw on the hardness of the upper part of the frizzen.

 

[Larks]

Thanks Ian, I really appreciate that - I’ll let you know how I go. From memory I only hardened the face once, not realising at the time that multiple applications would result in a deeper “case” so I’ll clean up the face and start from scratch.

 

[IanH]

Exposure time to the hardening compound with the metal at red heat is what adds depth. Ideally you would expose the metal for hours to get the carbon to absorb 10-15 thousandths into the surface, but with the Cherry Red which requires only a few minutes red heat for 2-3 thousandths case depth is not a bad result for a process so simple and it can easily be redone if you wear it through.

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

I had really hoped that I’d be posting my finished Baker Rifle rather than begging for more help but, although I thought that I’d had this sorted a while ago, my hammer won’t fully close with the frizzen not fully opening.

Initially the hammer was dragging against the side of the stock and I thought that was the issue, but after shaving that back and refinishing the stock I’m still having problems.



The frizzen is somewhat stiff and I wonder if that is what is stopping it from behaving as it should? There doesn’t seem to be anything binding it so I wonder if the frizzen spring is a little too strong and, if that could be the case, can it be lightened up somehow? ie by perhaps thinning it out a little somewhere? Or is that a foolish idea?

I am getting a little spark but am hoping that might be more effective once I get the action working properly, otherwise I’ll have another crack at case hardening it again.

I have tried flipping the flint up the other way and I swapped a lead flint wrap for the leather to get the flint sitting further back hard against the jaw screw.

Some F-locks like wedge down as you have the flint. Some like wedge up. Try flipping the flint into the wedge up and see how that works. Also, put a dab of oil where the frizzen meets the spring. Semper Fi

 

[Pratt]

There are soo many things to look at. Polish the surface to the spring. Polis the heel on the frizzen. Check length of the flint. check the motin of the lock after each repair attempt. Re harden or replace the frizzen. Be calm while you work.

 

[Larks]

WOOHOO!!! I’m pretty happy with this now (though I’m sure it can still do with some improvement...it sparks and it did ignite the powder in the pan when I tried it this afternoon but I’m sure it could be better...???)

Thankyou all for your amazing help!!!

Without wearing out my flint it seems to be striking and sparking consistently on every try

 

[Larks]

• I’ve re-case hardened the frizzen face
• Reshaped the frizzen cam and polished it (shaping was over four small file attempts at a time)
• Tempered the Frizzen pan, leg(?), cam' and toe (?)
• Gradually reshaped the mainspring, slightly more open and slightly more curved (again over a few iterations)
• Re-hardened and re-tempered the mainspring five times - ie each time I reshaped it and then a couple more times to try and improve on it. I eventually found a decent infrared thermometer so that I could use my lead smelter and get the temp pretty steady around 750degF for tempering.
• Rehardened and re-tempered the frizzen/feather spring and polished the face where the cam sits...

The cock weight has gone from @7lb to about 9.5lb and the frizzen now down to 1.5lb to 2lb and that seems to be doing the trick.

Is there supposed to be any trick to cleaning up the lead on a spring if tempering that way? That was perhaps the most onerous part of the rectification work.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I like the crashy noise in the slo mo video.

 

[IanH]

WOW! You really got after it, didn't you? Great job!

As to keeping lead from sticking to the springs, either rub them with a pencil all over or put a squirt of dry colloidal graphite (lock cylinder dry lubricant) in a cotton ball and rub them down with that. Graphite is an insulator so make sure you leave the springs submerged for a few minutes so the heat soaks all the way through.

According to what I keep seeing written, your frizzen spring tension is too weak now, BUT it sparks well (notice the nice yellow color? that means the sparks are hotter), throws the entire spark shower straight into the pan, and the frizzen isn't bouncing back off of the spring once it cams open, so I think all your tuning work paid off. That lock is also quite fast, I think you will be very happy with it now.

A tip someone gave me to determine if lock springs are balanced and the mainspring energy is being used efficiently is to work the lock in your hands. Hold it so the inside is toward you, left thumb/forefinger holding the front so the frizzen won't bite them, hold the back between thumb and forefinger with thumb on the sear lever to trip the lock. If it wants to jump out of your hands, the frizzen spring is too weak. the lock should more or less just bump your fingers slightly and not try to somersault across the room.

I keep reading experienced experts who believe in light springs for reliabilty, longevity, and best sparking. I dispute this. My Kibler round faced lock takes 26 pounds of pressure to cock and it works VERY well and during some homemade flint experiments I quit at 60 strikes with NO flint maintenance or need to do any. IF the springs are right, the working angles of all the things you fixed on your lock are correct, and the frizzen steel is hard enough (but not TOO hard, depends on the steel how much tempering it will need), the lock will be reliable and easy on flints.

 

[IanH]

I like the crashy noise in the slo mo video.

The man took advise, did a lot of research on his own, performed a graduate-level lock overhaul and that's all you got?

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

The man took advise, did a lot of research on his own, performed a graduate-level lock overhaul and that's all you got?

Uh, no. He pulled off something I have never tried to do before, i'm pretty impressed actually.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Oh, I STILL like the crashy noise in the Slo Mo, Even If Mr. Fancy Pants thinks I shouldn't. Very cool.

 

[Larks]

Thankyou gentlemen, I really appreciate it. I’m not peeing in your pocket when I say that I wouldn’t have attempted it without the terrific advice that I’ve received here

 

[FlinterNick]

I had really hoped that I’d be posting my finished Baker Rifle rather than begging for more help but, although I thought that I’d had this sorted a while ago, my hammer won’t fully close with the frizzen not fully opening.

Initially the hammer was dragging against the side of the stock and I thought that was the issue, but after shaving that back and refinishing the stock I’m still having problems.



The frizzen is somewhat stiff and I wonder if that is what is stopping it from behaving as it should? There doesn’t seem to be anything binding it so I wonder if the frizzen spring is a little too strong and, if that could be the case, can it be lightened up somehow? ie by perhaps thinning it out a little somewhere? Or is that a foolish idea?

I am getting a little spark but am hoping that might be more effective once I get the action working properly, otherwise I’ll have another crack at case hardening it again.

I have tried flipping the flint up the other way and I swapped a lead flint wrap for the leather to get the flint sitting further back hard against the jaw screw.

I had really hoped that I’d be posting my finished Baker Rifle rather than begging for more help but, although I thought that I’d had this sorted a while ago, my hammer won’t fully close with the frizzen not fully opening.

Initially the hammer was dragging against the side of the stock and I thought that was the issue, but after shaving that back and refinishing the stock I’m still having problems.



The frizzen is somewhat stiff and I wonder if that is what is stopping it from behaving as it should? There doesn’t seem to be anything binding it so I wonder if the frizzen spring is a little too strong and, if that could be the case, can it be lightened up somehow? ie by perhaps thinning it out a little somewhere? Or is that a foolish idea?

I am getting a little spark but am hoping that might be more effective once I get the action working properly, otherwise I’ll have another crack at case hardening it again.

I have tried flipping the flint up the other way and I swapped a lead flint wrap for the leather to get the flint sitting further back hard against the jaw screw.

I’m going to say its probably a combination of issues that is slowing the lock down.

Without seeing the internals it’s difficult to give an accurate assessment.

Dave Persons’ suggestion about reducing the strength of the feather spring may work, but my instincts tell me it’s a combination of issues that may including some binding up of the internals or possibly a mainspring that is not providing enough energy due to a bad temper or crack somewhere in the spring, all it takes is a a few bad screw alignments to slow a lock down.

Or it could be the back street boys music in the background that is slowing it down haha.

 

[Larks]

I’m going to say its probably a combination of issues that is slowing the lock down.

Without seeing the internals it’s difficult to give an accurate assessment.

Dave Persons’ suggestion about reducing the strength of the feather spring may work, but my instincts tell me it’s a combination of issues that may including some binding up of the internals or possibly a mainspring that is not providing enough energy due to a bad temper or crack somewhere in the spring, all it takes is a a few bad screw alignments to slow a lock down.

Or it could be the back street boys music in the background that is slowing it down haha.

Thanks for the input mate, however I did actually resolve it shortly afterwards last year following the terrific advice from everyone on here (see posts #31 and #32).

Incidentally, having finally resolved it The Rifler Shoppe eventually sent the completed lock that I had originally ordered, received just a few weeks ago.