Flintlock Plaines Rifles.

[plmeek]

So that's the lock, and ramrod off a harpers ferry?

The lock, patch box, butt plate, and entry pipe are definitely from a HF 1803. The ramrod, probably not. Neither is the trigger guard or the lock bolt escutcheon. There are probably other small parts like the trigger and screws that aren't HF.

With the low light in Gordon's museum, I had trouble holding my camera steady enough. There is a little camera movement blur in this photo. Notice the small stock repair above the nose of the lock. This rifle saw some use.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I know it’s hard to prove a negative. Correct me someone if I am wrong...but I don’t think there is evidence to support that assertion.

Well what you have is, "There are no known extant examples, nor records of such, half-stocked, Hawken made, flintlock rifles".
Which doesn't mean that somebody tonight might come across the first example of such that contradicts the above in quotes...,

Also as far as "new technology" goes, Brazosland you are correct, a lot of folks if not most folks would not have gone for brand new tech. On the other hand, there is always that segment of the population that can afford the newest and the best (even when that's just their opinion), and the Hawken rifles were the top-of-the-line for their day and geographic location..., and thus may have opted to only make caplocks for just that reason..., to maintain the air of "cutting edge" technology.

On the other hand the assertion that with the flintlock system there is no reason why somebody would not make a half-stocked, flintlock rifle, and indeed there are actual examples of such.....

English Sporting Flintlock Half-Stocked Rifle by Perry

LD

 

[tenngun]

I would point our that Jacob opened a shop in Maryland about when the cap was invented. Then moved to Ohio when lots of flints were still being made. I THINK Sam joined him in Ohio. Later he moved to Saint Louis. Sam may have joined him there. I don’t recall for sure.
So what makes a ‘Hawken’ in the way we think about it. If one says ‘Hawken’ we think of the big plains rifle. Iron mounted, with little decoration and big bore. We don’t think of small bore, light silver mounted rifles that look Ohio, or fine Maryland style long rifles. Yet Hawken made these.
Pointing to a flint lock long rifle as an example of a Hawken has nothing to do with plains rifles.
Considering the time frame I don’t see how Jacob didn’t make flintlocks, but what he made in 1818 isn’t really applicable to Saint Louis a bit over a decade later.

 

[brazosland]

I am asking because I don’t know...

How many rifles did they make in St Louis up until 1840? How many total do we have documented today?

 

[Einsiedler]

There is an interesting 1/2 stock flint rifle in Chris Hirsch’s book on the Texas gun trade.

Scroll down to the Erichson, Houston Texas marked rifle on this link.

http://www.texasguntrade.com/texassportingrifles.htm

 

[Dphar1950]

Phil,
Thanks for all the clarification and documentation. It was the lack of the cut out in the stock that made me think the Smithsonian rifle was always percussion. I have a Kennedy Buttstock that is dated July 1837 and it has the flintlock cut out. Unfortunately the lock is lost.

The lack of a cut is meaningless after 1800-1810. English locks with "French" cocks stopped the cock with the fence. Like this Manton V pan lock.
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/mantonlock/manton_pics/lock_front_open.jpg

 

[Dphar1950]

I would point our that Jacob opened a shop in Maryland about when the cap was invented. Then moved to Ohio when lots of flints were still being made. I THINK Sam joined him in Ohio. Later he moved to Saint Louis. Sam may have joined him there. I don’t recall for sure.
So what makes a ‘Hawken’ in the way we think about it. If one says ‘Hawken’ we think of the big plains rifle. Iron mounted, with little decoration and big bore. We don’t think of small bore, light silver mounted rifles that look Ohio, or fine Maryland style long rifles. Yet Hawken made these.
Pointing to a flint lock long rifle as an example of a Hawken has nothing to do with plains rifles.
Considering the time frame I don’t see how Jacob didn’t make flintlocks, but what he made in 1818 isn’t really applicable to Saint Louis a bit over a decade later.

What we would call a percussion cap was not invented until the late 1820s. Previously they were reloadable iron cups (and various other pill/tube/scent bottle etc) and reloading these things with a detonating compound should scare the hell out of anyone. Or the scent bottle for that matter. The stuff is REALLY sensitive to impact or friction. Also before at least 1840 not everyone was enamored of the percussion system for a number of reasons. This is from 'Firearms of the American West 1803-1865".

 

[rich pierce]

I’d be surprised if anybody who could afford an English halfstock rifle was trapping beaver for a living.

 

[tenngun]

Styles did go over. I think the ‘03 was inspired by English rifles.

 

[plmeek]

I am asking because I don’t know...

How many rifles did they make in St Louis up until 1840? How many total do we have documented today?

Good questions. Unfortunately, nobody knows the answers to your questions.

We have some "snap shots" of some data but can only make some educated guesses (some would call them "SWAG", i.e. "Scientific Wild A$$ Guess"). Charles Hanson, Jr. in his The Hawken Rifle book (page 20) lists data from the first manufacturing census of St. Louis in 1850 that the Hawken operations produced "100 rifles and 20 shotguns" that year. I can't find the reference (it may have been Arms Makers of Maryland by Daniel D. Hartzler), but recall a business census from Xenia, Ohio in 1820 listed Sam's production that year at 100 rifles. Hanson used these numbers to assume that their average annual production was about 100 rifles. Hanson's total production estimate from 1825 to 1849 (the J&S period) to be "2,000 guns of all types and 500 S. Hawken guns through 1854. How many more were made after that with the 'S. HAWKEN' stamp is anyone's guess."

There is no public information on how many survive today. There are probably collectors out there that have confidential data that they have assembled over the years that track most of the surviving rifles.

I've assembled pictures and some details on about 20 J&S Hawken rifles from published material and the internet. I have info on about 3 times that many S. Hawken rifles. I'm sure there are a lot more out there in private collections that have never been published.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I’d be surprised if anybody who could afford an English halfstock rifle was trapping beaver for a living.

Probably agree..., but gunmakers making guns for trappers could copy such to varying degrees had they seen one. One does not need to be a trapper to have such a gun where a local gunmaker could view it.

LD

 

[Grenadier1758]

It is quite probable that Lakenan, Jake Hawken's first partner in St. Louis, had some knowledge of the English half stock (flint?) rifles. Lakenan came from New England and was aware of English rifles imported into Canada and the new United States. Jake was aware of the half stock Harper's Ferry 1803 rifle. By the time that Hawken and lakenan began building rifles in St. Louis in the 1820's, they would have known of the large game on the plains and expanded their rifle line to become larger in caliber and slightly heavier. This was 14 years after the Corps of Discovery returned and other hunters and trappers were venturing into the plains and the Rocky Mountains.

 

[rich pierce]

Probably agree..., but gunmakers making guns for trappers could copy such to varying degrees had they seen one. One does not need to be a trapper to have such a gun where a local gunmaker could view it.

LD

I don’t roll in the “something could have been like this” vein. To me it’s like saying an Austrian or Russian musket was used in the Revolutionary War. Yes, could have happened.

Regarding local gunmakers seeing something and copying it- this has never been documented. Dickert saw a lot of guns. So did Oerter, JP Beck, J&S Hawken, Dimick, etc. We don’t see J&S Hawken rifles with English buttplates. We don’t see JP Beck rifles with stepped wrists or Roman noses. Makers did not copy something they saw. Can’t find one example.

But, if somebody wants an English halfstock flintlock rifle they should get one and enjoy it. I’d prefer they do that without making up an improbable storyline. I don’t see any need for explanation beyond “I really like it.”

 

[FishDFly]

I believe the "fat lady" just sang.

 

[plmeek]

Regarding local gunmakers seeing something and copying it- this has never been documented. Dickert saw a lot of guns. So did Oerter, JP Beck, J&S Hawken, Dimick, etc. We don’t see J&S Hawken rifles with English buttplates. We don’t see JP Beck rifles with stepped wrists or Roman noses. Makers did not copy something they saw. Can’t find one example.

Whoa there hoss!! You been drinking espresso this morning? Better switch to the caffeine-free coffee. LOL

You don't see the "English sporting rifle" that Jacob Kunz copied into this rifle?

Or how about the other "English sporting rifle" that J. Joseph Henry copied into this rifle?

Both Henry and Kunz made rifles in the style of the Philadelphia School. The identifying characteristic of the Philadelphia School is the pineapple finial as seen on the trigger guard of the JJ Henry marked rifle above.

The Philadelphia gun makers copied the pineapple finial directly from the English.

You mention Dickert, Oerter, and Beck. I'll throw Andreas Albrecht in there, too. We know of no direct connection between Dickert and Albrecht or Oerter, but we see a lot of characteristics in Dickert's carving that appear on Albrecht attributed rifles as well as the one surviving signed rifle. Somebody surely was copying somebody there.

Isn't the existence of identifiable "schools" evidence that gun makers in that school were "copying" each other? I don't know who first used the "daisy" patch box, but it sure looks like a lot of gun makers copied it on their rifles.

Isn't there also evidence of a gun maker who was trained and worked in one area or school that moved to another area and adopted or copied characteristics of that school in his rifles?

Jacob Kunz may be a good example of this having lived and worked in the Lehigh Valley area of eastern Pennsylvania before he moved to Philadelphia in 1810. This is the Kunz rifle in the Metropolitan Museum in New York which is very much in the Lehigh Valley school and different than his later Philadelphia school rifles or the half stock flintlock pictured above.

You say, "We don’t see J&S Hawken rifles with English buttplates." But don't we see J&S Hawken rifles with English scroll trigger guards?

Hanson went through Missouri Republican newspapers from 1823 to 1840 to "glean any real idea of the nature and extent of the goods offered by the many merchants of St. Louis." Here is a scan of a page from his book showing some of the ads he found. There are lots of references to English, French, and even German guns in the ads. Note the April 9, 1833 ad for Leverett & Thomas of New York that offered English guns varying from $4 to $100. A NW trade gun cost AFC about $4, but it's hard to imagine what a $100 (in 1833 dollars) gun looked like. Another interesting ad is the one for Bentzen & Kloppenburg on Nov. 14, 1834 that lists English, French, and German double and single barrel guns and rifles.

Maybe we're talking semantics here. You may find "copied" too strong a word. "Incorporated in" or "influenced by" may be more acceptable to you.

There is ample evidence that English sporting guns and rifles were imported into the US and found their way to St. Louis where the Hawken brothers would have been exposed to them. I think they also had indirect English exposure from guns and gun parts made in Philiadelphia and marketed in St. Louis. Tryon was a major wholesaler of gun parts. The patch boxes on the Medina Hawken and the Leonard Hawken, for example, are like commercial patch boxes that Tryon marketed.

The style of breech bolster on this Henry Deringer rifle made in 1829 is very similar to some we see on J&S Hawken rifles and was probably copied from English guns.

 

[TFoley]

Sir, you only got a 'like' because there isn't a 'love'.

 

[rich pierce]

Phil, good points about influences but I’m not buying the concept of a sole customer walking into a shop and telling Joe Blow “make one like this.”

Manufactories filling an order for trade guns made this way? Yes. Same big outfits copying a popular design? Yes. Very different from one-off, customer ordered gun.

With the scenario presented, a Bulgarian musket belongs at 1833 rendezvous. Bulgarian immigrant comes to US at 16 years of age, signs up for one of the trapping companies, stops into Philip Creamer’s shop in St.Louis, and has him make a Bulgarian musket to take west.

 

[plmeek]

Rich, I agree with your "Bulgarian" point, but I think it is the extreme case. That may have been what you meant to say, but it isn't how I read your reply to Loyalist Dave. He had said, "gunmakers making guns for trappers could copy such to varying degrees [emphasis mine] had they seen one." I read your reply to say that gun makers did not copy specific traits of rifles such as buttplates, stepped wrists, or Roman noses, which I don't agree with. I think I showed examples where they definitely did.

When we are talking about an average trapper, I also agree with your earlier statement that, "I’d be surprised if anybody who could afford an English halfstock rifle was trapping beaver for a living." Brigade leaders, partners in the fur company, and the like probably could afford an English halfstock rifle if they wanted one. There were also a number of "visitors" like William Drummond Stewart and George Ruxton that did carry English rifles to the mountains. And we don't know what type of arms folks like Captain Bonneville and Nathaniel Wyeth carried.

I think we could probably agree that if half stock flintlock rifles, either English made or American made with English traits, were carried by mountain men, they would have been in exceedingly small numbers--to the point of being a novelty.

My observation and study agrees with this statement.

Half stocks were coming in to style about the same time as percussion.

There is not an obvious connection between the percussion system, which is a technological advancement, and a half stock, which is more of a fashion to me. But they both might appeal to someone who likes the "new". I could also see the Hawken brothers embracing both as a way of distinguishing themselves in the St. Louis market. Probably the local market at first with a gradual entry into the fur trade market.

Hanson noted on page 21 of his book The Hawken Rifle that Lucien Fontenelle, who was a brigade leader for AFC, ordered 500 percussion caps with his rifle in 1832. He doesn't specifically say but implies on page 50 that this rifle cost at least $28 which is the max price for the orders he found that year. The previous year, he found a Hawken rifle priced at $30. The low end price for these two years was between $18-22. The records don't distinguish between full stock and half stock rifles, but a $5-6 difference could reflect the difference between a flintlock full stock and a percussion half stock at that time. In the years 1837-1840, Hanson found orders for rifles in the $35-38 range. He thought these were certainly half stock percussion rifles, possibly with hooked breeches and other extra cost options such as patch boxes and engraving.

Other discoveries of Hawken rifle orders and sales in fur company records have been made since Hanson published his book. The earliest is 1827/28 with no price info. The others are 1829, 1834, 1836, and 1837 with price info that indicates nearly all of these were on the low end of the price range, suggesting they were mostly full stock rifles. This more recent documentary evidence still supports Hanson's conclusion that the typical mountain man carried a full stock rifle--flint in the 1820s and early 1830s--and that some of the brigade leaders and the like had an inclination to adopt the new technology and fashion trend of the half stock percussion rifle.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Makers did not copy something they saw. Can’t find one example.

Actually, you can find hundreds of examples...maybe thousands.

"copy" is not the same as "duplicate".

For your argument against the idea to work, the makers MUST always choose to copy something else that they saw, when they see it. Oeter, Beck, Dimick may not have seen a half stock rifle, or may have chosen not to copy the half stock rifles that they saw. Saying they didn't make such because they never saw one assumes had they seen such they would've jumped and started making them.

You also argue that they must be exact copies..."no roman nose", "no English butt plate", when I'm merely suggesting that seeing the half-stock portion on a rifle, is all that is needed to be copied, to produce a half-stocked rifle. Again, "copy" is not the same as "duplicate".

AND UNLESS you are referring to the FIRST builder who made X type rifle..., so unless the Hawkens invented the half-stocked rifle (they were likely born in Harper's Ferry), or one of the other fellers you mention invented the full stocked long rifle, then ALL OF THEM were copying something that they saw. Dickert, Leman, Derringer, Beck, Oeter, didn't work in a vacuum and independently come up with the flintlock longrifle having never seen such before in their lives. They are not "duplicates" of other rifles, of course they made minor cosmetic changes which we today call "styles" but a longrifle is a longrifle is a longrifle.

LD

 

[rich pierce]

Let’s go back to the beginning. Somebody wants a halfstock flintlock rifle for fur trade use if I recall. And all I have read so far is “coulda” and unlikely scenarios. For many that’s more than enough. If a firearm existed at that time, it could have gone west during the fur trade. Probability? Is that of any interest? I think it is, to some. If not, I’d prefer to set the table that way.