flintlock TC "Hawkins" and clones

[Runner]

Thanks for this post! The man I shoot with grew up hunting with flinters a lot of years after that. I am sure they never went out of style. They went out of style with the every day consumer somewhere in there and stopped appearing in the stores and such. Are those the dates commonly used? The dates when an object could be purchased and the date when they disappeared from being common new purchases? I grew up in the "scope" revolution. I remember the holdouts that refused to have one of those undependable ugly things on their modern guns!

I can see the guy standing there asking the shop owner if those came with a flintlock instead of the caplock! The arguments around the fire in camp.

 

[tg]

"the person is not aware of what could have been."

could have beens don't count for much in the re-enacting game..... the sights are the only thing that I have a real issue with with the TC guns as far as authenticity goes, the style itself has the general look of a mid 19th century gun, though there would generaly be a bit of a different buttstock line that would put ones eye more in line with the common sights of the time.

 

[hcook]

Why, I know of some people in the 21st Century in one of the most affluent countries in the world that still think flintlocks are superior to the caplock, :: not just for re-enacting, but for target shooting and hunting.

Now there's a country that doesn't stand a chance ::.

 

[roundball]

Why, I know of some people in the 21st Century in one of the most affluent countries in the world that still think flintlocks are superior to the caplock, :: not just for re-enacting, but for target shooting and hunting.

:: :redthumb:

 

[BLAHMAN]

.......


As you correctly point out, they're more and more driven by the CFO to follow the marketplace instead of creating a market...and unfortunately, all companies have to do that to a degree or they go under........


In fact, there may not even be a large enough market segment left to support their remaining investment in traditional muzzleloaders much longer, which today are reduced back down to only the Hawken and Renegade models...their whole catalog of a couple dozen models has been otherwise discontinued.......


...IMO, I think the number of people shooting some form of 'traditional muzzleloader' at all is in a constant state of decline...thanks
:redthumb:

Constant state of decline? Really think so? If that's true how come it takes so long to buy parts to make your own muzzleloader....barrels that is.

I bet if you peruse through some back issue's of the NMLRA magazine, and look at the total number of members of a decade ago and the total membership now it would be close.

TC, as a company, must make a product that 1) sells quickly, 2)is affordable to us cheapo's out there, 3) can be mass produced with as little time and labor as possible and 4) turn a profit for the company.

Now keep in mind, I'm not describing that everyone who owns a TC is a 'cheapo', but consider who we are: everybody loves more value for the dollar spent, everybody wants to buy that item at a 'real deal'.....I do, I do it all the time. The guys at Log Cabin know me best by this. If there is a deal, a used barrel, bits and pieces of this and that....they let me know. Sometimes I buy them, sometimes not.

I think there is less youth involved in the muzzleloading sports due to the computer, videos, game this and game that. I think the youth, when they grow up, will eventually look in our muzzleloading direction, see us having fun, scratch their heads and wonder "Can I do that? Can I have fun like that?"

My two oldest boys take very little interest in BP now, girls and cars...you know the routine....but they ask me what I'm working on now, or about going to a gun show or going hunting. They are around it and hopefully, when I'm worm fodder, maybe one of them will pick up my tools and try to make a gun, who knows. My 12 year old daughter, however, is buggin' me about guns: "Dad, where's my gun? When ya gonna finish it? Can I go huntin' with ya in PA?" That is refreshing!

It's a cycle thing, comes and goes, hot one day, not the next. But it is an entirely adult thing, and wonderfully fascinating.

And as for this TC stuff....who cares, like MM said, it is the best springboard for gettin' people involved. They are not cheaply made, but well made for the dollar.

And we're all not a bunch of cheapo's.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I gotta get my neighbors newspaper back on his porch before he wakes up! He hates when I do that! :haha:

 

[roundball]

Constant state of decline? Really think so? If that's true how come it takes so long to buy parts to make your own muzzleloader....barrels that is.

Yes, that's what I think...no science, I simply said "IMO".

I could only speculate on your other question, that there's probably less and less individuals in the custom barrel building business over time, as existing ones stop, or retire, or die, etc. And as the ranks of established custom barrel builders shrinks I would also speculate that less and less barrel builders are emerging to take their place.

Unless something happens to them, I suspect Green Mountain is on a course that will ultimately make them the primary barrel source for the ML industy in the future.

:m2c:

 

[tg]

My guess would be that there is a decline in the sales of production level "traditional" guns but probably an increase in the higher cost/ PC level guns as the Web has created a vast source of info on history and sources to purchase the latter type of guns.

 

[musketman]

I Really thought that the decline in "traditional" production guns was due to the increase of the modern inline gun market... :hmm:

 

[roundball]

My guess would be that there is a decline in the sales of production level "traditional" guns but probably an increase in the higher cost/ PC level guns as the Web has created a vast source of info on history and sources to purchase the latter type of guns.

That could account for some increase in more traditional ML's...don't know if/how big those numbers would be...and then how many of those would be siphoned off by Green Mountain and never make it to a custom barrel builder.

It's probably an awful lot of what Musketman said, particularly when you look at the sheer volume of inline sales, and how the 'traditional lines' are disappearing as manufacturers switch over production lines to inlines...if an inline will convert someone away from even a mass produced traditional rifle, odds are the majority won't then leapfrog all the way back over to a more PC traditional rifle.

I don't think the "average ML guy today" either has the time or wants to invest the time it takes to learn and become proficient even with mass produced traditional rifles...they want the extra hunting season and longer range with a good scope (like I did when I first started)..dunno...all speculation

 

[BLAHMAN]

True, but that means people are buying something that's a muzzleloader and that's a start. Ya gotta think that some of them folks will wander over from the inline side.

This forum is a perfect example, a small slice of the shooting society: of all these forums, only two represent the modern inline, the rest is dedicated to building, persona's, flintlock, so forth and so on.

 

tg, I think I know where you are coming from, but I was trying to ameliorate the discussion about these rifles...no, the sights are not true to original guns, but are easily replaced and have been so for a long time, with after market primitive sights. I have never owned a TC gun of any kind and probably never will, but there are many many people who do and who want to take part in buckskinning events (where for the most part they are acceptable). I think we too harshly criticise these guns, and although in the same shoes of someone starting out on a slim budget I would buy the GPR Plains Rifle, the TC Hawken can be made into an acceptable rifle for the very late fur trade period if in percussion and with primitive sights. My point was that there are numerous examples of traditionally built 19th century rifles that the TC gun RESEMBLES (not exact copy, although some are close). We could also nit-pick the modern steel, castings and machining in most of our "more exact" copies of old longarms. I know at least one very popular maker of "custom" 18th century arms who uses computer controlled duplicating machines for inletting and stock forming--yet charges hand made[url] prices....made[/url] like the originals? I think not, yet they are highly regarded by the Pc-conscious reenacting community.... :m2c:

Mike, could you direct me to some sources of 19th century TC type guns with the type of sights TC uses?

 

[tg]

I know of a couple of TC's that have been fixed up with dovetailed primitive rear sights and they look pretty good, I do think any resemblance to originals is most likely by chance rather than by design considerations with the originals as a guideline. I don't think they get "beat up on" as much as they are just called what they are... or aren't.

 

Yeah, I don't know what TC designer used as a model--he may have just "made it up" , but I have seen California rifles that were REAL close to the TC Hawken and wondered if he used one as a model...can't find the darn reference now, but the TC rifle is its clone....

I know of a couple of TC's that have been fixed up with dovetailed primitive rear sights and they look pretty good, I do think any resemblance to originals is most likely by chance rather than by design considerations with the originals as a guideline. I don't think they get "beat up on" as much as they are just called what they are... or aren't.