Flintlock vs. Caplock accuracy

[Moloch]

Hello friends of the black powder! :thumbsup:

I do not own any flintlock rifle so I dont know if there is any accuracy difference in a flintlock compared with a caplock.
I've heard that the priming powder causes rather big differences in velocity because its not as consistent as the priming in a cap. This would change the point of impact, resulting in high and low hits on the target. :hmm:

End of this month I'll get my Christmas bonus so I am in business for a new rifle. Since I dont have any flintlocks I am deciding between a Investarms Hawken great plains flinter in .54 or the much more expensive Armi Sports/kimar or pedersoli Jaeger .54. But the long barrel of the great plains is very appealing.
Is a .54 loaded with 70-80 grain of FFG good enough for 100yds?

What do you guys think of investarms and the great Plains hawken? I have only rifles from pedersoli and armi sport and both are excellent rifles.- :hatsoff:

Thanks!

 

[sundog]

Well yesterday I took a friend to my gun club, he shoots centerfire arms but had never shot a flintlock. I warmed him up on a 25 yard target and got him used to the loading and fireing.
Off the bench he made one ragged hole with 5 shots. I think he is going to buy his own GPR now.
I love Lyman Great Plains rifles.
He was shooting my .54s favorite load 65 grains of 3 F Goex powder, . 530 round ball, pillow ticking patch and lubed with Lehigh Valley patch lube.
The Great Plains is a wonderfull rifle.

 

[Raider2000]

I can not speak of any comparrison between a caplock & a flintlock in accuracy but I do know that there is a slight velocity difference between the two lock systems when comparing two identicle rifles except the lock types.

My Lyman Trade Rifle "percussion" is a sweet shooter & once I get the right patch going through it'll be a tack driver, so I would say that Investarms does make a very nice rifle for the money.

 

[mazo kid]

Since you asked about accuracy differences, I would say that NO, there is no difference in accuracy between percussion and flint lock. The rifle will shoot as accurately as the barrel and shooter do. Will there be small differences in POI between the 2 using the same load? Yes, but that is easily determined and corrected. I have no experience with InvestArms or any of the other rifles that you mention except to say that I have repro Sharps and Rolling Block BPCR rifles by Pedersoli that are very accurate.

 

[redwing]

Flintlocks take a lot more knowledge and work to shoot. The primming unlike a cap can be adjusted to what your gun likes. The loss of gas thru the vent is off set by adding more powder to the flinter than the cap gun.
It seems the serious flint shooters shoot better scores than the cap gunners. The reason being that flint shooters seem to practice more. The flint shooter are more often long time black powder shooters. Most of them started with cap guns and worked up to the flint. If the cap gun is a BS degree in black powder the flint lock has to be the PHD of all black powder shooting. :thumbsup:

 

[Black Hand]

Both are as accurate as the person holding them...

 

[Semisane]

I've heard that the priming powder causes rather big differences in velocity because its not as consistent as the priming in a cap. This would change the point of impact, resulting in high and low hits on the target.

Shot my .54 Great Plains flintlock over the chronograph last week end with 95 grains GOEX FFFg, and a patched .535 ball. Primed the pan with FFFg also. Patch lube was 25% bees wax, 25% Crisco, 50% olive oil.

The velocities of the 5-shot string were:

1558 fps
1552 fps
1560 fps
1562 fps
1559 fps
-------------
1558 fps Average

I wouldn't worry a whole lot about inconsistent velocities affecting POI.

 

[Moloch]

Thanks for the fast help, I really appreciate it! :thumbsup:

It seems that velocity is not so much upset by the priming charge as I have been told.
Thanks for clearing that up, I am already ordering my first flintlock, the Investarms great plains in .54.

Does anyone have an great plains rifle from them? I think I'll order .530 and .535 balls and .010/.012 patches with 50/50 beeswax and tallow and see what the rifle likes best.

I also found out that over the big lake the rifles from Investarms are sold by Lyman! Maybe thats why Investarms is pretty unknown in the US. Its a Lyman great planes!

 

[musketman]

There are a few things to remember about flintlocks, first, there is a small explosion going off right beside your face as the priming powder ignites, so once you get past that you're in like flint... Actually, by only filling the pan to the level of the flash hole or just a hair under, you can keep the "poof" effect to a minimum.

The other thing I noticed about a flintlock is don't let your left handed friends shoot a right handed flintlock. I let my friend Possum shoot my flintlock musket once, (Possum being left handed and myself right) he touched it off and set his beard on fire. :rotf:
I was even nice enough to put the flames out with a barrage of snowballs to his face, after I retrieved my musket, that is.

 

[Black Hand]

....I am already ordering my first flintlock, the Investarms great plains in .54.

Keep in mind that the reason flintlocks have gotten a bad rap is due to the poor performance of production flintlocks. Not saying that the Investarms is poor, but you get what you pay for in a flintlock.....

 

[Moloch]

Hmm, is a Investarms/Lyman-lock really that bad? If it sparks bad and it wont ignite everytime even with proper handling it would for sure kill the fun.
There is nothing more devastating on the range than ignition problems.:shake:

Should I get a caplock instead?

 

[roundball]

I've heard that the priming powder causes rather big differences in velocity because its not as consistent as the priming in a cap.

What you heard is hogwash...the only thing that the priming powder does is ignite the main charge through the flash hole...priming powder in a Flintlock is external to the breech and bore so no matter how much or little priming powder is used that burns "outside" the rifle, once that heat pulse goes through the vent and hits the main, the velocity comes from the main charge contained inside the bore.

However, a cap is essentially part of an internal sealed ingition system, and is why if the same load used in a caplock rifle is first powered by a #11 cap, and is then powered by a big musket cap, manufacturers claim that a velocity increase will be measurable from the difference in caps.

 

[silverfox]

There are several Lymans around here and a few investarms as well. Same rifle just different names. They are very good guns. Maybe over there they don't come with heavy grease in the bore. We need to really clean the bore before they are ever taken to the range. Most use automotive brake cleaner and do a lot of cleaning. Then it may take 100 to 200 shots before the barrel breaks in and starts giving tight groups. With that rifle also you may find you will have to drill the touch hole (vent) a little larger to prevent to many (Flash in the pans) and no discharge. If you do go slow and don't go over 5/64 and you should have near 100% ignition. Also when you prime the pan keep the prime lower than the vent (touch hole). Flintlocks are a lot of fun but they have a long learning curve to get them working right.
Fox :thumbsup:

 

[cal.43]

Hmm, is a Investarms/Lyman-lock really that bad? If it sparks bad and it wont ignite everytime even with proper handling it would for sure kill the fun.
There is nothing more devastating on the range than ignition problems.:shake:

Should I get a caplock instead?

No it´s not that bad, but from my point of view a rifle from americangunsmith, or a kit or in the white,with a good lock( siler etc.) is allways the better buy.You get what you paid for.

 

[swquiro]

Moloch,
You mentioned that you are going to order .010 and .012 patches for your .54 GPR, assuming that is what you buy. To add to your confusion I will add that my GPR .54 performs best with .019 and .020 patches. Of course, every barrel is an individual, and maybe the rifle that you buy will do well with the thinner patches. I would not buy large quantity of patches until you find out what your barrel prefers.

Alles Gute

 

[Emet Huntsman]

rifles be rifles. They are as accurate as technology can make them. All things equal, the only variable is the human element -- practice and practice and . . . until you are comfortable with each. I think you will find very little difference in the long run.
(I shoot both and I can never blame the gun for a bad day at the range. :wink: )

 

[cowpoke1955]

I have two .54 Great Plains Rifles, one percussion and one flint. Both shoot great with 80 grains of FFg Goex, .530 round ball, pillow ticking patch lubed with Ballistol. Each is just as accurate as the other. With the flint you have to get use to the flash, but that takes no time. In fact, it makes it kind of fun. You can't go wrong with a GPR. As long as you can get black powder go with the flinter :thumbsup: .

 

[Zoar]

Should you get a cap gun??? Heck NO!

Flinters are 1287 times more fun than percussion.

Just my humble opinion.

And as far as accurate... That is up to you, a good flinter will should better than the man can.

I have a 54 flinter and LOVE IT.

530 round ball and the iron sites it came with and I can hit just about anything I am aim at. How can you get better than that? How can a percussion or a modern do better?

 

[flaming canvas]

A couple of posts referred to the flash being a distraction. I don't even notice the flash unless I get a hang fire or flash in the pan. A properly tuned flinter should fire before you can react to the stuff going on 6 inches in front of your nose.

 

[Moloch]

Thanks all of you for the replies!

How can you get better than that? How can a percussion or a modern do better?

I only own rifles with caplocks and have never seen a flintlock except once; and the rifle had 50/50 failure to iginite. The owner was close to throw that darned thing to the target. I didnt ask, but either the operator or the rifle was manure.....

I always liked flintlocks better than caplocks, it feels more ''traditionally'' but I was always afraid that I get ignition problem and bought caplocks just to be on the safe side.

And there are all the variables, flint striking angle, different kind of flintstones, hardened frizzen and on and on. I know the basics of flintlock but I am afraid of doing it wrong and getting ignition problems all the way hating the rifle and myself.

Flinters are 1287 times more fun than percussion.

I am just waiting until someone writes ''1288 times better''. :grin: