Flintlocks and Black Powder

[Nameless Hunter]

4f is far to good to be used in just the pan!

 

[Coinneach]

I've always used 4f in the pans as I think it burns faster and is easier to ignite. Considering how much you put in a pan, a pound of 4f will last a long, long time. Some guys use 3f or whatever in the pans and do okay with it, I just think 4f has a better chance of giving a guy the best performance.

My habit is to use 4f as primer in the pans of smaller locks, but 3f for primer in everything else, including main charge up to ,54 cal then its 2f above that.
Not saying its the only prescription, but it works for me.

 

[Steve Martin]

Since I'm only a target shooter and not a hunter, I could carry a bunch of different powder and stuff with me to shoot but I look like a squatter coming to set up a homestead as it is now when I pull up at the range! I have never used anything but 3f as both the main charge and the pan primer and never had any issues. A friend of mine who also shoots flints with me sometimes does use 4f in the pan but I swear I can't tell the difference so far as ignition speed is concerned.

 

[david w]

I typically use 3F in the pan, and have used 4F without noticing a difference. What's more important than grain size is having your frizzen throw good sparks, and the touch hole being proper size. Powder granules should be able to pass through the touch hole. After I fill the pan and close the frizzen, I turn my rifle on its side and give a light wrap with my hand to help fill the gap between the powder in the barrel and the pan. It is also important not to overfill the pan. Ideally, the powder should be even with the center of the touch hole.

 

[david w]

Yes. Going from 2f to 3f I usually reduce about 10% for a starting load.
I haven't done it myself yet, but if I were going to go to 4f for my main charge I would reduce by more than that for a starting load.
There is someone here who uses 4f on the regular for his main charge with much success. Then, there are a whole bunch of people who get their panties in a wad and freak out over it, but, provide no real evidence of it actually being a problem. That said, just like any loading development changing powder, start low, work up (if needed) and be smart about it.

One legitimate issue I cab see with using 4f for a main charge is that it is usually not coated and therefore more prone to absorbing moisture if given the opportunity.

While out hunting, I seal my pan with beeswax. That keeps the moisture out. I use a cows knee over the frizzen if rain is a threat.

 

[tenngun]

I prime from my horn so it’s two or three in the pan.
This is one of those popcorn eating discussions as each of us has the best way

 

[Juniata]

I found that 4F tends to pull moisture quicker and depending on how tight the Frozen skid it can leak out.
I shoot whatever I use in the main charge in the pan as well.
I never noticed a difference in speed (I read that it is so close from one size powder to the next, I watched a thing with a high speed camera). Plus a priming horn/flask is one less thing you'll have to carry.
I get comments all the time how fast my rifle is.
Lock quality is everything

 

[Stony Broke]

I typically use 3F in the pan, and have used 4F without noticing a difference. What's more important than grain size is having your frizzen throw good sparks, and the touch hole being proper size. Powder granules should be able to pass through the touch hole. After I fill the pan and close the frizzen, I turn my rifle on its side and give a light wrap with my hand to help fill the gap between the powder in the barrel and the pan. It is also important not to overfill the pan. Ideally, the powder should be even with the center of the touch hole.

I was taught different methods, and they seem to work for me....but lots of us use different methods and they work for us. I was taught to put the priming powder on the side away from the touch hole, so the flash would ignite the main charge, instead of it working like a fuse to start the main charge, and to not use a lot of priming powder. It does seem to give me faster ignition that way....

 

[Mark Herman]

DO NOT use 4f for a main charge, priming only. The pressure spike with 4f is going to create a dangerous, possibly destructive, condition.

 

[david w]

DO NOT use 4f for a main charge, priming only. The pressure spike with 4f is going to create a dangerous, possibly destructive, condition.

I'm going to agree with you on that one.

 

[Brokennock]

DO NOT use 4f for a main charge, priming only. The pressure spike with 4f is going to create a dangerous, possibly destructive, condition.

Prove it.
We have been waiting for definitive proof of this for years.
We have seen someone using 4f as a main charge for quite some time now with no I'll effect in several guns.

We have been asking for proof of this, "you'll blow your gun up," stuff for a long time. Not one shred of evidence has been presented.

 

[Mark Herman]

There is a very knowledgeable shooter and chemically trained person on the other site, Mad Monk, whose work is more than enough proof of the fact. I'm not on here to create or participate in an argument, do what you want but don't give newbies what " could be bad advice".

 

[Brokennock]

There is a very knowledgeable shooter and chemically trained person on the other site, Mad Monk, whose work is more than enough proof of the fact. I'm not on here to create or participate in an argument, do what you want but don't give newbies what " could be bad advice".

Please, we are asking, show us the proof that he has presented. I know who he is, most of us do. If he has published or written or posted some proof that a proper worked up charge of 4f powder is dangerous and catastrophic as a main charge, present it, please.
We don't want his, or anyone else's "say so," please show us proof.

 

[Mark Herman]

If you are aware of the Monk and don't want to take his advice good luck to you. Sounds like the only way to convince some people is by doing what they question. Have at it.

 

[Brokennock]

If you are aware of the Monk and don't want to take his advice good luck to you. Sounds like the only way to convince some people is by doing what they question. Have at it.

No. Convince us with evidence. We have been practically begging for it.
Either you can prove it or you can't. If you can't just admit it. If you can, please do so.
I would not take the Mad Monk's say so either. If all he is basing this on is theory, then prove the theory. If he has proof, let's see it.

If there is a long list of blown up guns that blew up from using 4f as a main charge, where are they?

Just because some lawyer told a company to put a warning label on a bottle doesn't mean anything.

We aren't talking about using a matching charge in grains. No one is saying that if you use 80 grains of 2f or 3f that you should use the same when using 4f. Reduce the load and work up, just like any other reloading exercise.

If you just take someone's say so because of their position or reputation you must believe everything "Dr." Fauci says.

 

[Mark Herman]

Broke,
Argue with someone who cares what you do.

 

[Stone]

I was lead to believe that 4f was easier to get into the touch hole?

 

[Brokennock]

Broke,
Argue with someone who cares what you do.

Can't prove it, can you.

 

[bigstick6017555]

Please, we are asking, show us the proof that he has presented. I know who he is, most of us do. If he has published or written or posted some proof that a proper worked up charge of 4f powder is dangerous and catastrophic as a main charge, present it, please.
We don't want his, or anyone else's "say so," please show us proof.

It is an old wives tale, came from smokeless powder shooters, relating that technology to black powder, while not understanding how the two are different in performance. If I can shoot 22 grains of 4f in my 1851 .36 Navies which I do and have done for many years, 35 grains in my T/C Seneca .36 which I do and have done for many years have not caused a problem, and never will. I have been working on useing it in my T/C .50 flint with some good results. If any one can not grasp the technique to working up loads in a firearm, and understanding danger signs, than stick with the info in the books or manual for the fire arm.

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

BP of a particular formulation gives off the same volume of gas in relation to it's weight, regardless of corn size. Since Powder granules burn from the outside, the more surface area a charge has, the faster that volume of gas is released. Smaller granulations have more surface area, so the pressure buildup is faster with fine powders (that makes them good for short barreled guns). The only thing you have to worry about with finer granulations is higher breech pressures. As long as you are careful, you can develop loadings that will work fine, regardless of granulation.

That being said, the coarsest powder that will burn completely in the barrel will generally give you the lowest breach pressures and highest velocity (and usually best accuracy, though not always). Smaller bores have less volume than large ones, and that affects what powders will burn completely as well.

As far as priming powder is concerned, the flame-spread of BP is so rapid that you aren't going to be able to perceive a difference in granule size. In theory, it does take longer for the sparks to raise the larger ones up to ignition temp; but as said before, it's too little of a difference to notice. Smaller granules absorb water faster though, due to having more surface area for it's weight, so that can be an issue sometimes.